3/16" into Shurflo to uphill storage?

[littleTapper]

Looking at tapping a new woods next season and the layout makes it somewhat challenging for collection and transport. I did search through a lot of threads. Information was varied and not quite specific enough. Links to relevant threads are appreciated.

I would have to run 3-4 3/16" lines away from the road down a hill that has about 35-40' of drop. That's easy, done that before

The fun part is getting the sap back up to the road. I may be able to get electricity down to the low point, so one thought is to have the 3/16" lines running into a manifold on a Shurflo 4008, pushing the sap uphill to storage that is easily reached to pump out. Storage would be about 230' from the pump. The concern I have is not knowing if that Shurflo tied in would potentially kill the natural vacuum developed by the 3/16" lines while it works to pump uphill. I know pumping that much uphill would reduce the vacuum the pump could make on its own, but just not sure how that would behave on the end of those lines making their own vac. We wouldn't be dependent on the pump vacuum here....so my hunch is that it wouldn't hurt anything.

The other option I have is just run the lines into a tank and string up some water pipe and then get a decent sized pump to push up to the transporter. More work every day to get the sap. Efficiency is preferred.

So, looking for thoughts or ideas to try to test this before trying it in the woods and experience if anyone has done similar.

[NhShaun]

You could set up a dedicated shurflo as a transfer pump on a float switch. I think you would be better off with 1/2" or 5/16" Tubing for your transfer line. 3/16" may be a little small, will take a while to transfer and risks freezing quicker than a larger size.

If you decide to just go down there each day and pump it up with a larger pump. Consider trying to set the transfer line almost vertical then slopes down to your collection tank above. That way you will have less sap that drains back that requires hauling by hand. For reference, my 100ft 1/2" line only drains back about 2 gallons at most.

[DRoseum]

I set up a shurflo and an aquatec in series with each other to pull vacuum and push the sap uphill over 200 feet with 40 - 50 ft elevation change. Worked great for the 28 trees I had on it and eliminated a need for a tank and float switches. For larger volume of trees I'd probably use a bigger booster pump (like a coronwater TYP-8900).

I plan to post a YouTube video on it eventually.

[littleTapper]

Great info guys, thanks! I should have been a bit clearer; would do at least 5/16" up to the tank from the Shurflo below if I go that route and good points on draining the line. It may be easy to run some 1/2" "mainline" up as well, but need to survey things more completely to see if that makes sense.

The transfer pump on a float switch is also a good idea. Added complexity, but not that complex.

@DRoseum, the two pumps in series was on my mind too; just wasn't sure how well that would actually work, but your confirmation that is does is great to know!

[DRoseum]

Yep my original plan was to use a level controller for the 2nd pump (either a GRL8-02 which i used in my ROs or a Sump Pump level switch) but decided to try the series set up first. Worked great. The only thing you need to be mindful of is not over pressuring the line between pumps (and that there isn't major disparity in flowrates). I dealt with the possible overpressure issue by adding a tee between pumps with the dead leg to a check valve into a bucket. Over the course of a season it maybe pushed a total of 2 gallons of sap out through that at the time the pumps would start after a deep freeze. Not sure it was completely necessary but it gave me some peace of mind

[MarquisVII]

I think you are probably better off to collect in a tank at the bottom. Reason being issues with the uphill/pressure line freezing if you try to actively push up as you collect. This year my 4008 is right next to my collection tote, but about 2' lower than the top of the tote and after a freeze (especially the quick onset freezes) the pressure side is frozen solid with sap, which upon startup in the morning immediately trips the built-in high pressure shutoff on the 4008. Without a running pump you can't suck ANY sap through what are likely to be only partially frozen sap lines, which, as I'm sure you know, will increase your yield and help to thaw them quicker. By the way, I use 1/2" OD LLDPE with the quick connect fittings on the pressure side of my 4008, which I think would be a good choice to send your sap up the hill. You can probably reap close to the full 3gpm going uphill with that size.

Taking my thoughts a step further, you could use the same pump for vac and to drain the tank by building a manifold that integrates the quick connect fittings so you can easily disconnect it from the manifold as your vac pump and then swap it to drain the tank and push uphill, then reconnect it for vac when you're done.

[DRoseum]

I've done the pumping into a tank and using the same pump (with a valve manifold) to draw from that tank and push it uphill. I've done it 2 ways (1) completely isolating the vacuum lines and only pumping the tank, (2) drawing from tank and pulling vacuum simultaneously.

Neither of these worked as well as the dual pumps in series with the pressure relief check valve in place.

You are going to lose time, vacuum levels, or both on the sap lines, and the shurflo has a max PSI rating that makes it somewhat ineffective above a certain elevation change.

Not to mention, you have to keep going back to that pump to switch valves etc.

The series pumps provided me max vacuum (over 28 inhg) and delivery of my sap to my main tank without any interaction from me at all.

[littleTapper]

I think you are probably better off to collect in a tank at the bottom. Reason being issues with the uphill/pressure line freezing if you try to actively push up as you collect. This year my 4008 is right next to my collection tote, but about 2' lower than the top of the tote and after a freeze (especially the quick onset freezes) the pressure side is frozen solid with sap, which upon startup in the morning immediately trips the built-in high pressure shutoff on the 4008. Without a running pump you can't suck ANY sap through what are likely to be only partially frozen sap lines, which, as I'm sure you know, will increase your yield and help to thaw them quicker. By the way, I use 1/2" OD LLDPE with the quick connect fittings on the pressure side of my 4008, which I think would be a good choice to send your sap up the hill. You can probably reap close to the full 3gpm going uphill with that size.

Taking my thoughts a step further, you could use the same pump for vac and to drain the tank by building a manifold that integrates the quick connect fittings so you can easily disconnect it from the manifold as your vac pump and then swap it to drain the tank and push uphill, then reconnect it for vac when you're done.

I run a 4008 on flat ground now with 5/16 going to my tank with about 40' of tubing and have been doing so for 8 years. Yes, that line freezes, but the lines both to and from the pump tend to thaw faster than the trees wake up and they freeze and thaw essentially at the same time. Having a larger line to the tank may take longer to thaw (but if black water pipe, perhaps thaw more quickly).

Swapping purpose of the pump and breaking vac to the trees may shorten taphole life (but I only use CV spouts). Once my 4008 is on, it stays on. Plus, I don't have all day to wait for a 4008 to pump 100 gallons of sap uphill.

What you mention is simple though; and I like simple. More food for thought. Thanks!

Yep my original plan was to use a level controller for the 2nd pump (either a GRL8-02 which i used in my ROs or a Sump Pump level switch) but decided to try the series set up first. Worked great. The only thing you need to be mindful of is not over pressuring the line between pumps (and that there isn't major disparity in flowrates). I dealt with the possible overpressure issue by adding a tee between pumps with the dead leg to a check valve into a bucket. Over the course of a season it maybe pushed a total of 2 gallons of sap out through that at the time the pumps would start after a deep freeze. Not sure it was completely necessary but it gave me some peace of mind

Yes, that pressure concern was on my mind. I know the TYP-8900K on my RO does not move anything if it sees pressure before or after the pump when it turns on (the after makes me concerned with a frozen line after the pump). Perhaps the Aquatech pumps work differently or I have a wonky TYP-8900K and just don't realize it since I only have a sample of one to draw from.

[littleTapper]

Reviving this to report on what I did and how it went.

I kept it pretty simple. Three runs of 3/16 (with 5/16 drops and CVs) to a Shurflo 4008 that was downhill of the last taps by several feet. Was able to run power. 5/16 uphill to the tank by the road. 38 taps total.

- Gauge at the highest run always was showing 22-23" vac.
- I had three events where I lost sap. Left the tank open (100g), pump power lost; PC Power supply died (~80g), and battery died (Swapped out PC PSU for battery/charger and the charger stopped charging) so maybe another 50-70g lost. Put in a different PSU after that.
- Still got 947 gallons of sap off these trees (24.9 g/tap). One was a red, so that was pulled early. The others are all sugars.
- 4008 had no issues pushing sap up to the tank. Never sounded like it was laboring or fighting the head pressure.

Will do the same again next year and may add a line or two or three. This setup really worked great