There are only a couple big bulk buyers over here that I know of, not much for competition.
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There are only a couple big bulk buyers over here that I know of, not much for competition.
For a while now those who have been around the business side of this have been saying that maple SUGAR is the future and that the market for it will be Asia and Europe first. I guess that's why we see big guys going in for 200k plus taps.
Did read the part where he challenged people to put together a trailer load of Syrup because it couldn’t be done? That’s not true if you need the syrup bad enough because there is a lot in storage by people hoping that the price will go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralStark
The article is about the Midwest.... “The supply of syrup in the Midwest is non-existent,” Roth said. “I don’t see the surplus that everybody talks about.”Quote:
Originally Posted by BAP
I took the whole article as referring to the season in the Midwest, which is where I assume Roth primarily purchases syrup from. I also took it as Wisconsin and the Midwest are having a late season so the supply of syrup is limited, hence the challenge of putting together a load of syrup...
From the Maple News April page 31 "Roth went as far as to say the U.S. market was completely dry, even in the Northeast. In the U.S. there is no surplus."
I'm not sure if you're referring to the article BAP shared or a different Maple News article.... If he does think there is no available syrup in the northeast, he is crazy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie
I just checked the Maple News that came today and that is what it said.
for quite some time, it has been clear that the bulk prices are controlled by a select group of people, including the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers, (FQMSP for short) aka: Fédération des producteurs acéricoles du Québec, FPAQ. Obviously, controlling 60+% of the syrup in the world has its perks, but a handful south of the border as well. To explore this thoroughly, one would have to be willing to go down the rabbit hole and discuss certain quality control and regulatory elements that are missing north of the border, but alas - another post for sure.
I would have to grow more hands (and feet) to count the number of times that a certain NH packer proclaimed that the prices would be depressed - only those may not always be the exact words used...you do have to be able to read between the lines....Surplus, banner year, stable... All code for: we are not raising the price.
While I would be disingenuous to not acknowledge that the FQMSP has absolutely contributed to the stabilization of global syrup marketing/prices and assisted to level the price through good years and bad, but similarly to the current Canadian Dairy scene, where USA farmers are going out of business and Canadian ones are "thriving", there is a cost to releasing the control to a few.
The surest way to raise the bulk prices, is for every producer that runs right to the packers in April to offload their "surplus" to not do so. Not only would this immediately trigger a supply and demand cycle, but it would disallow the packers the luxury of gauging the total available production and would raise prices.
Off my soapbox.
bobbyjake, well said.
Sell at retail and make the money yourself is my plan. I'm glad I'm not in the position that I can't hold my syrup and retail it all. Those who put them selves in the position that the need the lump sum check ASAP contribute to the low bulk prices and I agree, many bulk buyers may spread the surplus supply thought to keep prices low(er).
I can recall, the first year I ever sold bulk syrup was in 2008, that year it was a seller's market. I negotiated with Bruce Bascom and got $3.00/lb regardless of grade. Even after that I saw the benefit of selling retail and expanded my retail efforts. I now retail every drop and even buy some bulk to meet my needs. I only sell bulk if I make any Commercial grade.
Do not contact me to buy more, I have already made all of my purchases or made my commitment to buy, besides, my scale is still only a drop in the bucket compared to what you larger producers are making.
The large producers will do well to put effort into retail, either yourself or an employee, either part time or full time depending on the amount you need to move at retail.
We just shipped a pallet of quarts and pints to Wyoming for my brother to sell. We're having a record year so we've opted to find more markets. We've never bulk wholesaled, never will. We will add another 3-500 taps next year if this works out. We keep expanding our retail market opportunities, I'll be ****ed if I'm giving it away.
Selling retail in small mom and pop stores is a whole different animal. Selling to your local 2 to 3 store operation is fine as long as you keep him fed with syrup. Now go down to the larger retailer grocery store that has a buyer and see how they operate. Now approach the multi state grocery and fork over $25,000.00 just to keep your product.......then miss a delivery and see what happens. Its a whole different roller coaster your riding.
I bulk mine because I don't have the time or desire to sell it that way. I have a real job that pays the bills and in a good year without big mistakes I do well.
I sell all of mine retail and I only have 1 retail outlet I use, most of mine is thru my website, the rest is from my house or the sugarhouse. While I no longer have 1300+ taps, but I sold it all retail then too, but had 1 more retail outlet. My current outlet sends me an email when I need to restock, otherwise I just go in once a month to collect my check and restock. The beauty of that one is that my space only costs $8.50 a month and no percentage of sales. While the slowest 4 months look very poor, the other 8 more than make up for it. Last Nov and Dec. I got an email for more bourbon barrel aged syrup weekly and I put 48 out each time minus the 2 or 3 that were left from my last filling. That was filling my space for the BB syrup, I also had a facing or 2 of about 10-12 other syrup containers.
Until I retired June 17, 2016 I also had a day job, plus a blueberry farm to work, and re-stocking the shelves never got old. Still have that for now.
Holy smokes first time in 6 years the price went up .10 for the top three grades at bascoms.....they may just have saved me from going somewhere else because I feel they tend to grade darker than what's in front of them contributing to .10 less per lb.........
yea organic went up .10 also. The funny thing is the packers have to wait for Canada to be about done before they can set the price for VERMONT ORGANIC. You know the whole pricing thing is a scam.
Spud
Spud, are you saying organic premium is now .20 instead of .10?
You can not have a rational discussion if all you do is spout crazy talk. I will agree I say some goofy things but to throw mud against the wall doesn't show much intelligence. Show me some facts to back up what you say and Ill listen.
No I'm saying the price went up .10 from last season on organic. It appear the price went up the same .10 for non organic also. Vermont packers should not need to wait till Canada is done their season to set the organic price of VERMONT organic. Vermont organic or any states organic should be priced differently. In my opinion the price of organic should be .50 above non organic. Much paperwork and aggravation goes into being organic. We are inspected from top to bottom in order to be organic and there are fees to pay for this cirtificate. Most non organic operations are not inspected here in Vermont. I'm not saying organic is a better syrup I'm just saying that it's a safer choice because their operations meet all health/safety standards. As of now almost anyone can sell bulk non organic syrup to a packer without having any inspections to their operations. Most non organic syrup is of top quality made with pride. I think it's safe to say some nasty makes it to the packers. That nasty May look and taste ok but the operation that made it could be less then par.Quote:
Originally Posted by lew
Spud
This is what I have always said, could never figure out how Vermont could build such a image and not have to be inspected?? We must be inspected to sell to a packer in Wisconsin. I think its just a matter of time and vermont will have to toe the line as well. We vacationed in Vermont in 2003 and fully one half of the sugarhouses were dives IMO. Sure changed the way I viewed things from there on out.Quote:
Originally Posted by spud
I can't speak to your other points of being organic as it would deviate from the topic but a premium does not exist to reimburse someone for their extra paperwork. The premium exists because there is a market for organic syrup. It's all about supply and demand. If there was a shortage of organic syrup, the price would go up. There seems to be a fair balance between what is needed and what is being supplied so packers give the slight premium so that level continues. If they needed more and couldn't find it, the price would go up to encourage producers to go through the certification process so there would be more on the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by spud
I think the reason that you have to wait until the Quebec season ends to set the Vermont organic price is that they produce 70% of the maple syrup. I think the market has a certain need for organic syrup and if Vermont had a bad season and Quebec had a good season, packers would just use the Quebec organic because consumers are shopping based on price for the most part.
I've had it go both ways at Bascoms, it depends on who they have looking into the Lovibond.Quote:
Originally Posted by blissville maples
One time I brought in all Golden and Amber syrup because that is all that I make and it was all graded Amber or Dark. The guy had the nerve to say that it didn't have much flavor. I tasted the jug that he said didn't have much flavor and he was wrong, it had an excellent Amber flavor. I looked at my slip and found that he had graded it as Dark and it wasn't even close. When I questioned him about it he said that if I didn't like it I could sell it somewhere else. If I thought it was dark I would have kept it to sell to my customers.
The last two times that I brought syrup in it went the other way. The time before last I brought in a mix of Golden and Amber and it was graded as such with more of it being graded as Golden than what I had brought in. The last time that I brought syrup in which was about a month ago all of it graded Amber except for one 5 gallon jug which was right on 75% with my Hanna grader. The guy that did the testing must have looked at that one first. He graded it as Golden and then went through the rest of my twelve 5 gallon jugs using just the turkey baster and not the Lovibond and graded it all as Golden.
Bascom's always goes by the price that Canada sets and gives us the lowest price that they can going by the dollar exchange rate. Bruce has told me that he won't pay US producers more than what he can buy syrup from Canada for.
It's good that the price went up a little and it could go up again in the fall. Bruce says that he has enough syrup on hand to last until October.
At our Local Hannaford you can buy quarts of Organic Syrup in the Organic foods section cheaper than some of the non Organic syrup in the syrup/cereal isle. So I Don't see the price of Organic going up too much until people stop selling syrup to these big stores for 9-10 dollars per qt.
I think Being Organic gives you a slight edge as far as being able to move your Syrup in a Market that is Saturated but over all i think it's not worth the Aggravation.
With 1000 taps it might not be worth going organic as you say. Organic does pay $2.20 more per gallon of syrup. For those who have a lot of taps it does pay off. For me it gives me $5-8000 more per season. Organic can be sold as non organic if needed. Non organic cannot be sold as organic. Going organic is something that every sugar maker has to decide for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by n8hutch
Spud
I can see where it makes sense for Bulk producers to be Organic .bulk producers need ever cent they can get I suppose, and since this is a thread on Bulk prices I guess it makes sense if you can get 10% more for your syrup.
For me in my area I feel like I would be spending say 5% more to produce the syrup to make the same Margin on the Retail end, only place I may gain would be with the very very few that would perceive that there is a difference between Maple Syrup produced "Organically" and maple Syrup that is not certified Organic.
I know what you are saying, I feel inspection are coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcasper
I would have to somewhat disagree on your first point. If a Vermonter wants to be Organic there is not only paperwork to do but also they have to pay a fee and comply with the Organic standards. We also have to pass yearly inspections. My point was the Vermonters that do not sell organic do not have to comply with much of any standards. They can run a filthy operation and answer to nobody. If they want to sell to a packer all they have to do is bring their syrup in stainless barrels. If they want to sell their syrup at a flee market or in a store they still do not need to be inspected. A person could make their syrup in a lead soldered turkey fryer and cook hotdogs in the sap while boiling it and then bottle it up and sell it at the flee market. Their evaporator could run on Nuclear Power and still it's ok to sell in stores. There are some stores that would require inspections to take place but thats up to them. In VERMONT organic syrup is the safest syrup to buy. Most non Organic producers make a quality syrup but how can the consumer be sure? The answer is they cannot. This is why I feel the Organic price should be a minimum of .50 more per pound. On your second point I do understand supply and demand. Although the packer said they have to wait on the Canada season to be over to set the Vermont Organic price. The Canada season has nothing to do with Vermont Organic. If there was a surplus of Vermont Organic then I could see the packer say they would have to wait to see how the VERMONT ORGANIC season goes before setting the price on Vermont organic syrup. As of now the packers feel just giving .21 cents more a pound is good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Spud
I respectfully disagree that the Vermont organic market has nothing to do with Canadian season. The two are connected because if the Vermont organic price is high, the packers just won't buy it because they have a ready source of other organic syrup to replace it.Quote:
Originally Posted by spud
Let's say Vermont sets it's organic syrup price at $3/lb. Then the Canadian season ends and they set their price at $2/lb. The packer could buy the Vermont syrup but then needs to offer it to his customer at the higher price. The customer has a choice - do I buy the higher priced Vermont organic or this other syrup that is also organic? The consumer is mostly going to buy based on price and buy the Canadian organic syrup.
Now, there is a segment of the market that is going to say I want Vermont organic syrup but depending on how big that is, you might have unsold product. Unsold product is worthless because there is no willing buying so the price comes down. Where they settle is premium.
Unfortunately, the packer can't set the premium until he know what the entire market is and since Canada produces 70% of the syrup, they have to wait until that price is set and adjust accordingly.
Thanks DaveB. That does make sense to me now. In your state does non organic producers need to be inspected before selling to a packer? Wondering about other states also.
Spud
There are inspections for being organic but Connecticut does not require inspections of maple syrup producers.Quote:
Originally Posted by spud
My understanding is that if you do sell syrup to a packer that you have to be registered with the FDA and that by registering you open yourself up to inspection.
So help me understand.....Vermont has their own "organic" syrup classification? I thought the new grading system was meant to standardize everyone, and do away with individuality if you will? What is stopping a Vermont packer from covering their needs with less expensive Canada organic and still call it vermont? Sounds like what Wisco. does with cheese, as long as 30% of the product is from Wisco. the rest can be from wherever, whenever and still be labeled "Wisconsin" cheese. What a scam!!Quote:
Originally Posted by spud
We have had to be inspected to sell to a packer for at least 8 years now, maybe 10! We have always needed to be inspected (besides bulk), for any sales other than sales direct to the consumer (i.e., farm stand, farmers market, craft show, etc....). Wisconsin I believe is the strictest of any state or province as far as inspections are concerned. I have noticed many Wisco producers using it in their advertising, unlike Vermonters who are unable to b/c there is no standard for inspections there.
If your state does not require and carry out inspections (the state is the ones carrying out the FDA inspections in most cases), then the odds of you getting inspected are next to nil! I cannot believe the states that do not require inspections of maple operations??!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Well, us New Englander's don't need the government holding our hands for everything we do like the rest of the country wants. They don't call us "****ed Yankees" nothing. I come from the "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of all Evils" state.
No, but Vermont NOFA is one of the primary certifying agencies in the area, so does the lion's share of the ORGANIC certification. There is currently no national level certification for organic maple syrup, but there are basic guidelines. You may find small variations in the rules from one certifier to another, but in general they are all quite similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcasper
It does on many aspects of maple syrup grading....light transmission, density, clarity, grade names.Quote:
I thought the new grading system was meant to standardize everyone, and do away with individuality if you will?
That is against Vermont Maple Law. Only syrup made in Vermont from sap originating in Vermont can qualify as "Vermont" Maple Syrup.Quote:
What is stopping a Vermont packer from covering their needs with less expensive Canada organic and still call it vermont?
While there is no formal inspection program in Vermont, there are several other things. Until a few years ago there was a random shelf-inspection of maple syrup for quality. VT Agr employees could pull stock from store shelves to open and test, and pull it off sale if it didn't meet the quality control criteria. Currently there is only a "by complaint" inspection. There is a voluntary VMSMA Sugarhouse Certification Program (UVM PMRC was the very first sugarhouse inspected and certified). In addition, since many sugarmakers here are bulk producers, if you have a relationship with a packer, they will pop by at some point during the season and visit. While this is seemingly just a courtesy visit, it is also intended to have them look over your operation and see that it complies with good practices and lead reduction requirements.Quote:
We have had to be inspected to sell to a packer for at least 8 years now, maybe 10! We have always needed to be inspected (besides bulk), for any sales other than sales direct to the consumer (i.e., farm stand, farmers market, craft show, etc....). Wisconsin I believe is the strictest of any state or province as far as inspections are concerned. I have noticed many Wisco producers using it in their advertising, unlike Vermonters who are unable to b/c there is no standard for inspections there.
In New Hampshire The Dept. of Ag requests that all sugar makers register with the state. This is not required. Inspections by the state happen if you voluntarily enroll in the NH Seal of Quality program. The rules are here start reading at the bottom of page 5. https://www.agriculture.nh.gov/publi...lity-rules.pdf.
The US National Organic Program (NOP) allows certified producers to use the USDA Certified Organic Seal. NOP does not do the inspections or issue certificates. The NOP allows certain entities to do the inspections and issue certificates. In NH the department of agriculture markets and food does the inspections. The NOP has minimum requirements for a producer to be certified. The NOP also allows the inspecting entity to add requirements above and beyond the NOP minimum requirements.
IN NH we are only required to meet the NOP minimum. I understand NOFA in VT and MOFGA in Maine are the certifying entities and that they do add additional requirements.
We are inspected for organic and again for the seal of quality.
We have a specialty store in Denmark that is buying our certified organic syrup. Denmark in part of the European Union. The EU is very strict about importing organic products from outside the EU. A electronically generated certificate of inspection from a certifying entity must accompany the shipment. The only acceptable electronic certificate is one generated by the EU agency TRACES NT. In addition Denmark requires additional paperwork and inspections from the store in Denmark if the product is organic. It is easy to import non organic un-inspected syrup into the EU!
[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;356814]That is against Vermont Maple Law. Only syrup made in Vermont from sap originating in Vermont can qualify as "Vermont" Maple Syrup.
Is this true or a "recent" change? Years ago, the sap could be non-Vermont as long as the syrup was made in Vermont to Vermont density and graded according to Vermont grade standards. The current definitions of "Product of Vermont" does not indicate the sap has to originate in/from Vermont either.
I believe it has been that way for quite some time. Unless I am mistake (which is possible), the only exception is sap from trees outside Vermont if a sugarbush is contiguous with (border) the state and some of the trees are on pipeline crosses the border. I don't think you can truck in sap (or you definitely can't truck in concentrate or syrup) from outside and process/pack it here and make it "Vermont" syrup, although some people have that common misconception.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjake
I heard that Quebec made 110m pounds of syrup this year, compared to last year when they made 152m pounds and 148m lbs in 2016. Sales by the federation were about 118m pounds last year and 101m in 2016 - they should start to use up some of the reserve this year, keeping bulk prices stable. There will still be a lot in reserve though...
The interesting question is...how much of that reserve is table-grade syrup (not commercial, buddy, damaged, etc.). Given the growth in syrup sales over the past 5 yrs, the level of "good" reserves could take quite a hit. Production during the 2019 season could become very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCFarms
There is no question that 2018 is definitely going to prove the incredible importance of the Quebec strategic reserve in maintaining stable prices. As much as producers would like to see prices go up...I can tell you from experience, a spike in prices is far worse than low bulk prices for most people. Large-scale ingredient markets demand stable prices. If prices shoot up, those uses are reformulated to other sugars and they take maple syrup out, meaning that markets dry up, followed by a drop in bulk prices. Everybody loses in that scenario.
Very much truth to that, but the packers made out pretty well the past 3-4 years by acquiring syrup much cheaper and not dropping their prices accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins
What do you think the tipping point is. I'm thinking around $2.20-40 per lbs for grade A wholesale
It is hard to say precisely, because packers aren't marketing the syrup directly in many cases. They sell to wholesalers and retailers, so any margin is split between those parties. What I hear from packers is that the retailers (especially the big markets like Costco and Walmart) are squeezing them to lower their prices, but the stores are not dropping the retail price. So while having big reserves (in Quebec) is probably good for ingredient markets to keep prices stable, having an oversupply that retailers can see acts to drop the wholesale price they will pay to packers.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcasper
Then again, we have the U.S. $ to Canadian $ that still factors into it as well. It's all a bit murky at those levels....and the packers are obviously reluctant to discuss it because they don't want other packers to know their prices or customers.