It's only a real expenditure once, after that it's all down - hill from there.
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It's only a real expenditure once, after that it's all down - hill from there.
In theory.... Doesn't seem to be that way in maple however...there's always something to be had. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
I put up a 13 tap line today, a 5 tap line and a new 4 tap line, (that had buckets on it last year). Last year I had about 75 taps on lines on my property and adjacent properties, this year there will be about 80. There will also be 80+ new ones on the steep hill I am allowed to tap this year.
I cannot put up any more lines until October 13. Now we move to barrel final rinsing.
So true Dr. Tim so true
My main job today was reclaiming the inside of the garage, but along the way, I put fittings where they should be, I added taps to two 35 gallon barrels and one 55 gallon barrel, finished off the pipe going through the garage wall and had the hose from it go into the 55 gallon RO raw sap barrel and also added the fittings from the RO barrel tap to the RO pump.
I guess the barrel should be higher, but it is above the pump and when full the sap will be much higher.
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I just ordered an 1100 Amarine bilge pump, to pump from my 35 gallon transfer tank with a small opening at the top, into my RO barrels in the garage. I can open the garage door, drive in, close the door and then using one of my boats two deep cycle batteries, can power the pump and get the sap into the RO barrels. If I don’t use it there, I can use it to pump from the 35 gallon transfer tank filled with concentrate, into the feed tank. I also have the pump I used last year and use both at the same time, to half the time, if time is a big factor.
I am just going through the various scenarios in my head, of transferring sap from three collection barrels into the 35 gallon transfer tank on the ATV into the RO raw sap barrel(s) in the garage. They will also be a fourth collection barrel that I will pump direct into the garage. I have no idea how fast the two 400 gpd membranes will create the concentrate, but I would like to run the RO sometime after midnight, again first thing in the morning after I have removed the concentrate and if there is enough sap, run it one more time. On a high sap day, I could produce at least 75 gallons of concentrate. The concentrate from the first RO would go into the feed tank. While the RO is working on the second batch, I would go out and collect more sap, then start boiling. At two different points during the boil, immediately after a draw off and adding wood, I would race to the garage, seconds away and refill the transfer tank with concentrate and refill the feed tank.
My guess is with the feed tank, float box and just after a draw off, I should have a few moments where I am not standing over the evaporator.
After the boil, I would go out and collect sap again depending on how it is running. If the sap is not running that hard, I could maybe skip the morning collection.
I don’t know if I am correct in saying this, but 10 gallons of concentrate should boil twice as fast as 10 gallons of raw sap? If true, if my evaporator boiled at 10 gph, the. I should be able to boil 20 gallons of concentrate in an hour.
Is this true?
Thanks
I don't think that's the way it works. With RO you've already removed a lot of the water, so it won't take as long to boil, but your boil rate should be the same. Going from 2% to 6% you've already removed about 75% of the water, and that's where the time savings is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
Lol, this is what confuses me. With less water to evaporate off, doesn’t it take less time to boil it?Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbletop
Swingpure, I have that same 1100 pump. It works great (it will surprise you) and you don't need the deep cycle batteries. It will work just fine off the ATV battery. Use the correct size hose for the pump, don't downsize it. I clamped my pump to a 4-foot length of PVC pipe and zip tied the hose to that pipe and it drops down into a 55 gal drum or small opening tank very easily. I also installed a quick connect plug on my ATV and the end of the pumps power wire. Putting an inline on-off switch at the top of the PVC pipe makes the whole job much easier.
Thanks for the tips. I have the quick connect on the ATV already, and I will order another quick connect switch. I have one already in my transfer pump setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z/MAN
I was thinking the deep cycle battery, as my ATV would be off inside the garage, and I was worried about draining the ATV battery.
Your boil rate is the amount of water that you evaporate off in a given amount of time. If you have 40 gallons of sap you will need to evaporate off 39 gallons of water. At 10 gph it would take 3.9 hours. If you ran that 2% through an RO to 6% you will have 13.3 gallons of concentrate and will need 1.3 hours to boil to syrup. (numbers are just for an example, you actually need 43.5 gallons at 2%)Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
It takes less time to boil with RO because you have less of it. If you have 1000 gallons raw sap to boil for the whole season, well, you have to boil off 975 gallons. If you can boil 10 gallons per hour, you're looking at 97.5 hours of boiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
If you RO to bring that 1000 gallons down to 500 gallons, now you only have to boil 475 gallons. It is still 10 gallons per hour. But fewer gallons. Now you will boil for 47.5 hours.
But if its the same evaporator that does 10 gallons per hour, its 10 gallons per hour no matter what. In fact, if anything, I think the more concentrated would be slightly slower than raw sap because the boiling point is higher.... but basically same.
Thanks for the answers. I do get that the savings in time, is the fact that you might have 50 gallons of concentrate to boil instead of 100 gallons of raw sap, saving half the time and half the wood to boil. There is a little part of my brain that still thinks a solution that has less water in it should boiled quicker than a solution with more water, but I will let that thought disappear and that 10 gallons of concentrate will take me an hour to boil, at a boil rate of 10 gph.
I am interested to see what my boil rate actually will be this year. I took on the advice given to me last year and I will now have a base stack, a straight 8” stove pipe, instead of a 6” stove pipe with a 90° elbow in it, a better pan (but not really an increase in sq inch surface area size), a bigger fire box, more seasoned and smaller wood and perhaps especially the float box, that will keep my sap level at 2” or less. (Often last year the sap level in my steam pans might be 3 to 5” deep). I also learnt last year how much wood to put in at one time and that less can be more.
Last year the locals said it was a slow year for our immediate area. I never had to deal with high volumes of sap on any given day, which likely allowed me to keep my head above water. I think only on one day did I reach 1 gallon of sap per tree a day. This coming year if I get a few days of 2 gallons per day, I will be a very busy man. Last year the taps on buckets did not do well, and I think I hurt myself with the taps on lines having the taps unconsciously at the 6 foot level of the trunk. This year they will be lower around the 4.5 to 5’ mark.
Also this year, I will have 80+ taps on what is ideal conditions for 3/16 line, with a steep slope the entire length of the 500’+ line, with a long uninterrupted steep run to the barrels. This should create pretty good natural vacuum, and it will all be with new line and new fittings.
Now I just need the new pan, float box and base stack to arrive and away we go. I guess also wait for March for the sap to flow.
I think I figured out what is tripping you up... and you are onto something. You only have to boil away what isn't syrup. So if you have 10 gallons of sap at 2%, you only have to boil away 9.75 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 4%, you only have to boil away 9.5 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 8%, you only have to boil away 9.0 gallons of that, at 10gph. So, yes, there is less to boil... but as you can see, for practical estimating purposes, you can still round to 10 gallons for easy math unless you're doing super high brix RO. But technically if you like doing math you could subtract the resultant syrup from your gallons to find out how much you actually have to evaporate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
But I also suspect that this slight difference will be eaten away, at least partially, by the higher boiling point of the higher concentration, so might as well still stick to calling 10 gallons of sap 10 gallons on your 10gph setup and still keep the math easy.
As others have said, no, this is not correct. The evaporation rate of your rig will remain pretty much close to the same whether you're boiling raw sap or concentrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
Evaporation (boiling) rate is the amount of water exiting the liquid via evaporation as steam during processing. It is dependent upon the size of the evaporator and the firing rate.
Draw-off rate is the amount of syrup (or near syrup) exiting the pan through the draw-off.
Processing rate is the sum of evaporation rate + draw-off rate.
More about this in Chapter 7 of the new Third Edition of the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual.
Evaporation rate will remain the same...processing rate (evaporation rate + draw-off rate) will increase somewhat with increasing RO concentration due to the higher draw-off rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy VT
Getting closer to running four lines. The weather has been and will be very rainy. I had 20 to 30 face cords of wood delivered in logs for the first time and it has been hard finding dry periods of time to Buck it up and split it. I had wanted to get it all out of the way before stringing the lines, but that is looking less likely.
Today because it rained all day, I took the opportunity of making 86 drops for the new lines, mostly for the three new lines. I am not positive how many taps I will need, it will depend on how many double tap trees I will have and then decide to tap double. I know I have approximately 78 different trees to tap.
Weather here is cooler than normal and we even have some freezing temperatures and minor snowfall in the forecast, but none of the snow will stay. It will warm up again next Friday. It is a reminder that I need to finish doing any of the little things to get ready for the maple season.
I still have to buy the 400 gpd filter, a second transfer pump and maybe a second RO pump.
I hope to get my new pan, base stack, float box and pan cover in December/January.
I gained access to some additional seasoned wood and will add at least a half face cord to my supply surrounding the evaporator.
Gary, I got it made this year. My wife let me get a wood processor and I received a military discount and did not have to pay any taxes or shipping cost. It came from Florida to Michigan. Can't wait to use it.
Well I am jealous. That would be very sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
My Buddy has a tractor that makes his work so much easier, with the lifting and moving of the wood.
I just need it to stop raining.
It's been raining here too. Now we have a big cold front dropping down from Canada, starting tonight with a rain/snow mix thru Wednesday. By the weekend it's going to be mid 60's and sunny.
Tomorrow I will run the three new lines on the perfect slope. After stringing them out, I will add the approximately 80 drops. That may last until Sunday to finish. I then have a fourth line to install, mostly an old one from last year, but I will add several more taps to the start of it.
By the end of Sunday, I will know how many taps I will have for 2023. It should be around 175 to 180, with three collection areas and 4 collection barrels.
Then I start splitting 7 face cords of wood for 2024 evaporating. I just finished splitting 14 face cords for winter 23/24 and a little bit for 24/25. (Without a wood processor lol)
I strung the three lines this morning with the help of two friends. Before I went alone to connect the drops to the line, my neighbour shared with a picture of a large black bear on his trail cam, which is in the same area of where I am running the lines. I kept an eye out for it. Things were going well installing the drops, until I could not find my tension hooks. I had just used them on the previous tree. I searched where I thought I put them down and then quadruple checked where I walked. After not finding after looking for almost a half hour, I drove home and got a finger rake. I eventually found them, just barely, about three feet away from where I thought I had left them, buried in the leaves. I may paint them a fluorescent colour. I finished off the one line, but lost my momentum and was losing the light, so I will try and finish the other two lines tomorrow and install a fourth line.
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The slope on the runs is excellent and there are good good steep runs at the end to power the tubes. The sap should race out of these lines. My transfer tank on my ATV holds 35 gallons, I wish I had like a 100 gallon one for my truck.
The runs look pretty good, Gary. That bear looks even better. I would put him down and have fresh bear liver and onions that night for dinner. It's one of those meals where you can sit back with a nice cold Canadian brew and say it doesn't get much better than this.
Unless the bear is chewing at my ankle, he is safe around me. I did pack some bear bangers and bear spray, in the extremely unlikely chance he came around.
I had planned today to get started at 8:30 am, but woke up at 5 and did not fall asleep again until after 6:30. I did not wake up again until 11:10. I raced out with no breakfast or lunch, and got in a good rhythm and finished connecting the drops on the two remaining drops. I added one more drop, so there are 74 drops on the three lines (21, 30, 23). The lines are approximately 510’, 550’, 550’ long. I meant to check the altitude at the peak, but it is a big drop from the top peak to the bottom. I definitely will have to break a path in the snow a few times prior to the start of the maple season. It is hard enough walking up there now.
I also strung a fourth line and got it connected just as it turned so dark I could not see very well. I have about three drops to add to that line tomorrow, but it will have 21 drops.
Tomorrow I will check out two lines I left up for the summer, and I will get a good count of my total drops. I will also add seasoned wood to my evaporator wood pile, to total out to about 7 face cords beside the evaporator. If the RO is working, that should be enough.
Today I put the final drops on the fourth line and also checked two other lines and made a repair to each of them. I also changed how the three lines connect at the bottom.
I measured with an altitude app the drop from the peak of the 3 lines to the collection area and it showed it being an 80 foot drop. It seems like more.
All totaled I have 150 taps. Tap count per line:
Collection area 1 (50 taps)
1 - 12
2 - 10
3 - 19
4 - 5
5 - 4
Collection area 2 (26 taps)
6 - 13
7 - 9
8 - 4
Collection area 3 (2 barrels) (steep hill) (74 taps)
9 - 21
10 - 30
11 - 23
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I also some additional wood to the evaporator pile.
Tomorrow I start splitting for evaporator year 2024.
Gary. your lines look really good, how did you manage to keep them so tight.
I had help this time with someone pulling, as I was unraveling and guiding the lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
Also when I add the drops with my tension cord, I take out any slack. That is really what makes the difference.
Maybe that is the difference between yours and mine. I use the tension hooks, but I was all by myself.
When I pull the lines together, and cut it, I see how much one line overlaps the other and I cut the difference out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
When I piled the wood around my evaporator, I added more wood to the top of the row than I originally planned, and was fearful it would tip.
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Today the top of the row behind the evaporator fell over, but fortunately it fell away from the evaporator. It made me think if it fell forward after I have my base stack installed, it would be bad.
I made a second row of wood on the left and dramatically reduced the height of the back row and the row on the left. The row on the right is three rows deep and looks to be very solid.
I also started splitting wood for 2024 season. As everyone knows, splitting the wood into wrist sized pieces vs home firewood takes twice as long. I should have it all completed come the weekend.
Today I finished splitting my 2024 evaporator wood. Next tasks are to give the collection barrels a rinse after sitting all summer.
I still haven’t done anything to my RO. I could stand pat with the 400 and two 150 membranes. I still do not understand how they work as far as flow. I still don’t get why the two 150’s at the end would not slow down flow from the 400. There is a piece in the puzzle I am missing. Maybe it is not about flow and instead about how much water is removed.
I still have to wire up the bilge pump and get the hose for it. Eventually I will buy a second transfer pump and maybe a second RO pump as back ups. Getting all of the lines up and finishing splitting the wood has taken the pressure off me and now I can do things at a more leisurely pace.
(I have 47 face cords of split wood on my property now and another five face cords of cut logs and a few more face cords of logs yet to be bucked up.)
How did you accumulate so much wood, did you buy a truck load of logs?
For the first time ever I bought 20+ face cords of wood. I already had 32 facecords on hand. With the 20+ facecords, I bucked it all up and split 15.5 face cords and have approximately 400 fireplace length logs ready to split in the spring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
Load of the 20 facecords of logs:
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Winter 22/23 Wood:
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Winter 23/24 Wood:
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Evaporator Wood
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Winter 24/25 Wood:
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One neighbour wants me to drop two tall birch trees and I can have the wood and another neighbour just came up and wants me to cut a number of their trees to manage their forest and I can have their wood. So I think I am good up to 24/25 or 25/26. Now to live that long.
Gary, do you heat your home strictly with wood or do you have a secondary source of heat. I heat our home with propane, and I have a pellet stove in the basement. When I have the pellet stove going, I leave the basement door open, and the heat will naturally flow upstairs. Keeps the upstirs around 72-75 degrees except for the bedrooms in the back of the house. They get cool.
We also have electric baseboard heat, but heat 95%+ from our fireplace insert. We use 13-15 facecords of wood a year to heat our place.
Our house (originally a cottage) is called a panabode style home with interlocking cedar sort of logs, with no insulation other then the “logs” themselves. They wood walls actually does a decent job of insulation. When we bought it we replaced all of the windows with better windows and added a roof on top of the existing roof so we could add R40 worth of insulation in the ceiling as opposed to the one inch thick white styrofoam insulation that was in the original ceiling.
Our bunkie and detached garage are heated strictly by electricity.
It continues to be great fall weather. I am sitting outside typing this on my rear deck and I can see some of my sap lines all set and ready to go. I can’t wait for the season to start. Looks like cooler weather will arrive in a week’s time.
Today I ordered my backup transfer pump.
In a couple weeks I will order the RO pump that Dan has talked about: Coronwater 800 gpd RO Pump 8900K RO Water Filter Booster, and my Aquatec will become my backup.
I may yet order a second 400 gpd membrane, but I still need to understand the system better. It still confuses me how adding my two 150 membranes after the two 400 gpd membranes does not slow how much Concentrate I get per hour.
I have to admit never doing the RO before, it is causing me the most angst. I know it will be a giant time and wood saver, but it just seems so much simpler to just add the raw sap to the pan and boil it.
I guess after I do it a few times, it will make sense and seem easier to do. None of the local sugar makers I know use an RO.
Gary you will have to let me know how the RO works for you. I have never used one in my operation.
It will be a steep learning curve, but I have watched a lot of videos and read a lot. The big unknown for me is how fast it will process 50 gallons of sap. That will determine when I start the first 50 gallons. I can see some days trying to run 150 gallons of sap through it. That should produce 75 gallons of concentrate. I will likely do 50 gallons starting after midnight, then 50 gallons when I wake up. If I have 100 gallons or less of sap I will start boiling then. If not I will wait until the 2nd 50 is done, then start the third and also start boiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
The other big unknown at one point I have to go get the last batch. Not ever having used a divided pan, I think after I have drained off the correct temperature sap/syrup and have added fresh firewood, I should have five minutes of unattended time with the evaporator, to go get the last batch.
I will flush the RO after the last batch and after I have finished boiling. I have bought the soap. I still have to get the bucket I will use to supply the permeate and soap and then permeate to do the flushing, washing and flushing.. I wonder if a 16 gallon pail is enough?
My base stack when it arrives is supposed to be 8 feet tall, then I will have a 3 foot double wall pipe through the ceiling and then will add a 2’ pipe with a storm collar on it. Today I was looking how I will support the double wall pipe and I have some ideas.
16 gallons for a flush, wash, or rinse is not enough of ypu are putting 100 gallons thru it per day. I would recommend keeping all of your permeate for these purposes. I have two 60 gallon barrels for permeate from 100 trees on 3/16 vacuum. Having all the permeate you can for flush, wash, rinse purposes is a good idea.
I had written a post with a lot of RO questions and I came to the realization although it will take me more boil time and wood, the whole process will be much more simpler and less complicated if I do not RO. I am a one man operation without a proper sugar house and it is just far more simpler to gather my sap, put it into a barrel beside my head tank and pump up the sap as required. This way after collecting sap in the morning, I can start to boil right away, I don’t have to stay up late to turn on the RO and wake up early to start a fresh batch and after a day of boiling, I don’t have to spend time flushing all of the membranes. (I also collect late afternoon after the boil)
I feel at peace with the decision. Keeping it simple is best for me and my early operation. My evaporator should be far more efficient this year, and I do not mind putting in the time to boil and when I run out of wood, I run out of wood, but I have a lot of wood, at least this year I do. Maybe one day I will get an RO bucket with all of the instructions and tips.
Now instead of spending another $400+ bucks on a new pump and membranes and barrel, I can sell what I built maybe for $300.
It just takes out so much uncertainty for me and as I said I feel at peace now. For other people and their operations, the RO may be the perfect decision for them.
I think this year just learning how to be good with a divided pan and increased taps will be a good enough learning curve.
Sorry for asking all of the RO questions the last year, but it was not in vain, it helped me to get to this decision.
Anyone in Ontario want to buy a DYI brand new RO? Lol. I just posted in on Facebook Marketplace.
I must say, I enjoy reading you thinking out loud but there is definitely a certain whiplash aspect to it! :lol:
I suppose if you can sell your stuff for most of what you paid, nothing really lost, but may I suggest an in-between option?
It seems you were stressed by the thought that the system must be balanced and absolutely all sap must be R.O.'d before entering the pan.
But clearly you are prepared to boil with no RO at all for this year.
So... what if you used your system once this year? Twice? Just to get to know it a bit? Maybe you'll find you even use it more. Or not. Doesn't matter.
Any amount you use it will be a bit less boiling, and a bit more learning. Or, even use it zero times but you've got a head start on your 2024 system in that case, and plenty of time to find deals on any remaining pieces you need.
I haven't R.O.'d yet, and I think I'm not going to get to it this year, but I've decided I'll be easing into it when I do. I won't try to stress about all or nothing or getting the balance just right. I'll RO what I can RO. And it will probably be the bucket, for avoiding re-inventing any wheels and the product support, and just to throw him a bone for all the free videos and documentation I've already read and watched.
On the flip side, if you've realized you've got the wrong stuff for what you want to do, might as well cut bait. The point is more that things don't have to be all or nothing first time out.