ro recommendations?

[tcross]

i'm exploring getting an R.O for next season. i have zero experience with them. seen them, but never used or seen one be used. i currently have 450 taps on 26-27" vacuum and the most i'll ever have is 550. i don't get too many 2 gpt runs in a year but it does happen from time to time. i'm boiling on a 2.5 x 8 raised flue that does 80-85 gph when running it hard. i'd like some recommendations on R.O's. i've got a line on a CDL Nano Max where the price is right. says its for 250 - 700 taps. however i'm afraid it may be too small as the gph processing speed seems slow, but again i have no experience with R.o. i'd like to run it one of two ways. either let the sap run all day and over night, then run the r.o during the day and boil when i get home from work. or be able to run home at noon and start it up, then get to boiling after work around. if you were in my position, what size R.O should i be looking for?

[jrgagne99]

Nano Max way too small, IMO. You want two 4"x40" posts, 3 would be pretty better I think. Being able to create 6% concentrate at the same rate that you're boiling was game-changing for me. No need to show up earlier, pre-concentrate, no head tank to wash. big benefits.

[ecp]

Can you tell us what you have for storage tank capacity sap wise and what your budget is for a permeate tank? Reason for my asking is it will change my thoughts. My first thought is to get a single 8 inch membrane unit and recirc you concentrate but you would need about 700 gallons of sap to start that size unit. while ill agree a nano max is to small it really depends on what you would like for flow rate and concentration % you are looking to hit. The electrical service at your sugar house might also be a limiting factor but with something of this size i doubt that will be the case.

[tcross]

i was assuming the nano was a bit small for what i want/need but wasn't sure. i currently have 600 gallons of storage for sap (another 200 if i use my feed tank) and if i add the other taps, which would not be next year, i'd get another tank or a larger one. i was planning on using a couple cage tanks i have for the permeate. i was planning on just recirculating the concentrate back into my sap tank and recirculating it if need be. my goal is to r.o between 5 and 8 %. i don't want to go higher than 8% in all reality. my wife works from home and is happy to help (she helps me with the boiling and canning parts. and my work schedule is pretty flexible so i don't need to ro and boil at the same time. my idea was to have 5-600 gallons and start the r.o late morning/mid day and boil when i get home from work. whether that's every day in high flow days or every 2-3 days. my sap room is always shaded and stays nice and cold. the R.o will be in a heated room with my releaser. my original thought was a 150 to 200 ghr unit that'd bring the sap up to 5% ish in one pass.

[DRoseum]

I agree on it being way too small and that a 2 post 4 x 40 would probably work best for your size and desired operations.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

250 RO. Hobby or Turbo. The turbos will run 400+ psi like the big boys if you want 10% or better sap in one pass. Not sure if the hobby’s will/can get you there in 2 passes. The high pressure pump is the difference. CDL’s 350 RO may work too for you.

[Andy VT]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?

[Z/MAN]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?
Andy, Yes, you can have an RO that doesn't keep up. When my RO Bucket 20 couldn't keep up I would just run raw sap along with the concentrate. You make do with what you have. Like you said any RO is better than no RO.

[amasonry]

I would think you want nothing smaller than a 250 gph ro. I run a 250 with my 2.5 by 8, with high pressure. It takes 1.6 to 6.5 without running it too hard. I start both simultaneously and by the time the evaporator hits its stride, there are 30 gallons in the head tank. Mine produces a little faster than my evaporator. you're going to need 500 gallons of sap so you can clean the ro, but a 250 can also process 1200 gallons if I have to.

[TapTapTap]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?

Andy -

I agree with other posts with one clarification. You should typically recirculate the processed sap with the "unprocessed" sap. Of course the raw sap immediately becomes processed sap once the two are mixed, albeit initially at miniscule concentration improvements. Then towards the end of the processing you hopefully have enhanced your concentrate to the desired sugar concentration for the boil. This methodology allows for consistency in the concentrate so that your boil is also mostly consistent - I'm sure you can appreciate consistency. And my point from your question is that I assume that most sugarmakers do it this way and do not actually have RO'd sap and non RO'd sap as you might have envisioned in your question.

Ken

[Andy VT]

These are good thoughts Ken! I think, overall, consistency is something I should consider more in my operation.
I also wonder if it would mess up a gradient to suddenly start adding concentrated sap to a gradient that's been established with raw sap...
I haven't messed around with gradients yet.
Apologies to the O.P. for this side conversation! Although I was hoping it would contribute something... I think the thread has helped you (and maybe more replies will continue to help you) figure out what RO would best match your operation, but wanted to throw out the idea that "some RO" would, I think, be an improvement over "no RO", if that's all the budget or other factors allow for.

[maple flats]

Just as a for instance I have and have used a 250 gph basic Deer Run RO since 2012. In that time I started with just over 600 taps all my own, then I grew to as many as 1320 taps of my own and after the first season, I started buying on shares from at first 2 other producers with as many as 400 taps combined, then at times sap from 2 others, but not every day. As such I was able to boil all of every day's sap either one day one or at times day 2. Fortunately at that time I was retired from my full time job but drove school but morning and afternoon. 2 or 3x I got so much sap, that I called my boss at the bus garage, to see if I could get a sub to cover my afternoon run. I was lucky, he always came thru so I could work hauling and processing sap and boiling sooner.
That being said, a bigger RO would have surely been better, but I managed OK. I was always home by 11:00 got enough sleep and drove bus the next morning.
The 250RO has 2 membranes each 4x40". Somehow I don't think you will be able to run the RO all day while you work, they seem to need more attention than that. They do (or at least mine has) have a high pressure shut off, which will turn the RO off at a designated pressure, mine's at 300 psi. During use I normally had to adjust the pressure as the membranes start to plug up, then every few hours run a short back wash before I can continue running. I set mine to run at 275 psi, I suppose maybe you could set it considerably lower and you might last a lot longer. A big consideration would be the concentrate, once RO'd it should be boiled now, not hours later, in addition to concentrating the sugar you also concentrate the microbes and warm the sap too.

[tcross]

thanks guys. all this info is very helpful! i've got a few quotes coming in for a 200 and a 250 gph r.o. Is there any one brand or brands that are "better" than others? i am pretty sure i want the high pressure shut off, but other than that is there anything (accessory wise) i should be looking for that would be useful? i'm only looking to get my sap to 5-8% and it'd be nice to be able to do that in one pass. i plan on r.o ing the sap and having it going back into the sap tank until i get the sugar content where i want it. i don't have room (yet) for a dedicated concentrate tank. perhaps once i'm comfortable with it, i may entertain running it at the same time as i boil, but that's not really a priority at this point. no worries on the minor hijack of the thread, its all good information and added good content to the thread.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

A hobby RO should get you to 5-8% in 1 pass or recirculating in the concentrate tank like you plan to do. High temperature shutoff is nice for the wash cycle. Like the low pressure shutoff, some come with it and some don't.

[ecp]

As far as brands go I would go with cdl every time when it comes to an RO (yes I'm brand loyal to them for equipment that will need service at some point). Seeing that you are in northeast Vermont this might come as a shock but, you should price check the pick and shovel against the Morrisville CDL store.

[tcross]

will the cdl r.o heat up the water before the wash cycle? says it needs to be heated to 40 deg Celsius. i don't have a great way of doing that in my sugarhouse currently.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

will the cdl r.o heat up the water before the wash cycle? says it needs to be heated to 40 deg Celsius. i don't have a great way of doing that in my sugarhouse currently.

The high pressure pumps will create enough heat to heat the water as it washes on the turbo RO's. I am not sure about the hobby RO's.

There are a couple nice CDL 250 RO's for sale on Marketplace right now. Couple in Maine and 1 in Vermont.

[ecp]

will the cdl r.o heat up the water before the wash cycle? says it needs to be heated to 40 deg Celsius. i don't have a great way of doing that in my sugarhouse currently.

the answer is both yes and no haha. It will heat the water during the wash cycle which just recirculates the water though the membranes unit it hits the correct temp. There is no heating element for heating. I do not have experience with the hobby units, but this is how all RO's I've had work. The sales people are more than happy to answer your questions when it comes to things like this.

[nymapleguy607]

Here's the deal on small ro's. Any hobby ro that uses a procon or other branded vane pump will not build heat on the wash cycle. It needs an external heating source. I believe the only 2-post 4" membrane ro that will do higher pressure is the Lapierre turbo 250. All other have a max PSI of about 275psi. If you operate a hobby ro to run 2 passes you can make 10+ brix concentrate, it just eats time doing it. Realistically you will have concentrate in the 8-10brix range after 2 passes processing the rated amount for the machine. I'm happy to talk more if you need clarification.

[tcross]

I spoke to a rep from CDL about their 250 gph 2 post, and he said that the pump will heat up the permeate after a few minutes of running it and will heat it up to the appropriate temp for washing. he said if i wanted the cleaning process to go a little quicker, i could heat up the permeate before it goes through but it's not necessary. hopefully he's not filling me full of b.s.. He was very helpful and seemed knowledgeable so i'm guessing he knows his stuff. they're a bit pricey, but it'll last me a very long time and the time savings is very appealing. i did reach out to LaPierre a few times as i've heard good things about their R.O's... but and can't seem to get a call back or email returned. not too impressed with that.

[Ghs57]

I ran a single 4x40 hobby Next Gen Maple Products RO for a few years, but some hobby machines don't have features that you will really come to appreciate later on. Two years ago I rebuilt this RO into a 2 by 4x40 post machine with a recirculation loop, flow meters for permeate and concentrate, added a booster pump and a low pressure cut off (this after burning up two Procons when the sap tank ran dry). We also use the RO to move sap from the transport tank to the sap holding tank, and can now concentrate from there to 8-10% at the same rate the evaporator boils. We also sometimes recirculate the sap holding tank before firing up the evaporator, just to speed up the run. My rig does not like to run sap higher than 10%, which can cause the pan to overheat. I use a propane burner to heat wash water, as the Procon does not noticeably raise the water temperature. So, spend the money now and cry once, rather than find your RO is inadequate later on.

Not every one has the abilities or inclination to build a system, but they really aren't that difficult to do, and can save a significant amount of money over the name brands.

[ecp]

I spoke to a rep from CDL about their 250 gph 2 post, and he said that the pump will heat up the permeate after a few minutes of running it and will heat it up to the appropriate temp for washing. he said if i wanted the cleaning process to go a little quicker, i could heat up the permeate before it goes through but it's not necessary. hopefully he's not filling me full of b.s.. He was very helpful and seemed knowledgeable so i'm guessing he knows his stuff. they're a bit pricey, but it'll last me a very long time and the time savings is very appealing. i did reach out to LaPierre a few times as i've heard good things about their R.O's... but and can't seem to get a call back or email returned. not too impressed with that.

This might be a personal thing but pre heating your wash water is just going to short cycle your cleaning. Membranes are cheap but i still try to get life out of them.

As for LaPierre - communication has never been their strength if you ask me, to the point that it pissed me off (I had all but wrote them off as not wanting customers). With that being said they just hired a sales guy from CDL and its been a 180 for me, I now get quotes and answers when I ask for them (BTW their prices are better than CDL on every item so far). I'd recommend calling him. Out of respect for privacy I won't post his number here but I'll send you a privet message with his name and number.

[SeanD]

Like Dave, I have a Deer Run 250. It was a 125 expandable that I expanded to the 250 after 4 years. The expandable has a HP pump that can handle the second membrane. Expanding to 250 was super easy and cost effective. That flexibility and the price got me to pull the trigger on an RO. It has a recirculation valve/line so I can increase the % sugar in the concentrate. I used to push it a little too hard in one pass, so now I do two passes to get it in the 10% range depending on what % sap I have. If I have 2% sap, I get well north of 10% on the second pass.

The two passes process is just more efficient for me. I found that had to really watch the pressure too closely when I recirculated back into the sap tank. I think the heavier concentrate would sink to the bottom and go through the RO without really mixing well with the raw sap. That would slow my rates down as well. So, now I remove a little less water in the first pass, keeping my flow rates high and squeeze it a little more in the second pass at a lower rate that still outpaces my 2x6.

This machine has flow meters for concentrate and permeate and a 10-gallon wash tank. It's easy to turn a valve and fill the wash tank with permeate - though I've gotten distracted and overflowed it more than once. The permeate is unheated, so I heat it with an inexpensive bucket heater. I have a simple kitchen thermometer for the tank, so I just keep an eye on it or set the alarm in case I get distracted - which is always. That's pretty much it for features. It's all I've ever used, so I don't know what other features I'm missing. Maybe my wallet will be better off not knowing.

This is just to help you with your research and planning. I'm not pushing you to one make over another. You are going to be so happy with any machine you get.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I spoke to a rep from CDL about their 250 gph 2 post, and he said that the pump will heat up the permeate after a few minutes of running it and will heat it up to the appropriate temp for washing. he said if i wanted the cleaning process to go a little quicker, i could heat up the permeate before it goes through but it's not necessary. hopefully he's not filling me full of b.s.. He was very helpful and seemed knowledgeable so i'm guessing he knows his stuff. they're a bit pricey, but it'll last me a very long time and the time savings is very appealing. i did reach out to LaPierre a few times as i've heard good things about their R.O's... but and can't seem to get a call back or email returned. not too impressed with that.

CDL used to make a 250 turbo with their own 4" posts. I have one. Just like a 600 with a 3 HP turbo instead of 5 HP. All the other bells and whistles and the same cabinet as a 600 that is fully expandable to whatever you want. So, just make sure he wasn't referring to one of those instead of the new 250 Hobby RO's. They are 2 very different machines.

Their new 350 RO with a single 8" post essentially replaced those. That may also be worth looking into as well if you can get enough sap to clean it. That is more like the big boy RO's at a price point between the hobby and big boys. I never did get a quote because I found the turbo 250 for sale and bought that one. Up until I found that one, I was looking at the Lapierre Turbo 250's. CDL is just closer to me and I have had very good customer service in Maine and in my discussion with them in St. Albans about the RO I purcahsed.