ro recommendations?

[tcross]

i'm exploring getting an R.O for next season. i have zero experience with them. seen them, but never used or seen one be used. i currently have 450 taps on 26-27" vacuum and the most i'll ever have is 550. i don't get too many 2 gpt runs in a year but it does happen from time to time. i'm boiling on a 2.5 x 8 raised flue that does 80-85 gph when running it hard. i'd like some recommendations on R.O's. i've got a line on a CDL Nano Max where the price is right. says its for 250 - 700 taps. however i'm afraid it may be too small as the gph processing speed seems slow, but again i have no experience with R.o. i'd like to run it one of two ways. either let the sap run all day and over night, then run the r.o during the day and boil when i get home from work. or be able to run home at noon and start it up, then get to boiling after work around. if you were in my position, what size R.O should i be looking for?

[jrgagne99]

Nano Max way too small, IMO. You want two 4"x40" posts, 3 would be pretty better I think. Being able to create 6% concentrate at the same rate that you're boiling was game-changing for me. No need to show up earlier, pre-concentrate, no head tank to wash. big benefits.

[ecp]

Can you tell us what you have for storage tank capacity sap wise and what your budget is for a permeate tank? Reason for my asking is it will change my thoughts. My first thought is to get a single 8 inch membrane unit and recirc you concentrate but you would need about 700 gallons of sap to start that size unit. while ill agree a nano max is to small it really depends on what you would like for flow rate and concentration % you are looking to hit. The electrical service at your sugar house might also be a limiting factor but with something of this size i doubt that will be the case.

[tcross]

i was assuming the nano was a bit small for what i want/need but wasn't sure. i currently have 600 gallons of storage for sap (another 200 if i use my feed tank) and if i add the other taps, which would not be next year, i'd get another tank or a larger one. i was planning on using a couple cage tanks i have for the permeate. i was planning on just recirculating the concentrate back into my sap tank and recirculating it if need be. my goal is to r.o between 5 and 8 %. i don't want to go higher than 8% in all reality. my wife works from home and is happy to help (she helps me with the boiling and canning parts. and my work schedule is pretty flexible so i don't need to ro and boil at the same time. my idea was to have 5-600 gallons and start the r.o late morning/mid day and boil when i get home from work. whether that's every day in high flow days or every 2-3 days. my sap room is always shaded and stays nice and cold. the R.o will be in a heated room with my releaser. my original thought was a 150 to 200 ghr unit that'd bring the sap up to 5% ish in one pass.

[DRoseum]

I agree on it being way too small and that a 2 post 4 x 40 would probably work best for your size and desired operations.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

250 RO. Hobby or Turbo. The turbos will run 400+ psi like the big boys if you want 10% or better sap in one pass. Not sure if the hobby’s will/can get you there in 2 passes. The high pressure pump is the difference. CDL’s 350 RO may work too for you.

[Andy VT]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?

[Z/MAN]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?
Andy, Yes, you can have an RO that doesn't keep up. When my RO Bucket 20 couldn't keep up I would just run raw sap along with the concentrate. You make do with what you have. Like you said any RO is better than no RO.

[amasonry]

I would think you want nothing smaller than a 250 gph ro. I run a 250 with my 2.5 by 8, with high pressure. It takes 1.6 to 6.5 without running it too hard. I start both simultaneously and by the time the evaporator hits its stride, there are 30 gallons in the head tank. Mine produces a little faster than my evaporator. you're going to need 500 gallons of sap so you can clean the ro, but a 250 can also process 1200 gallons if I have to.

[TapTapTap]

Sort of a side question, but I've wondered something. While I totally get how it is ideal for an RO to be the perfect size for a given boiling capacity, it seems if one had an undersized RO, couldn't one RO what one could, and not RO what you can't? It almost seems like there is some sort of law that says if you have an RO, every bit of sap that you process must go through it even if it kills you. I haven't RO'd yet but that's been my thought. My first RO will no doubt be undersized, but I'm thinking RO'ing some of my sap has got to be better than RO'ing none of my sap. But there might be something I'm not thinking through there?

Andy -

I agree with other posts with one clarification. You should typically recirculate the processed sap with the "unprocessed" sap. Of course the raw sap immediately becomes processed sap once the two are mixed, albeit initially at miniscule concentration improvements. Then towards the end of the processing you hopefully have enhanced your concentrate to the desired sugar concentration for the boil. This methodology allows for consistency in the concentrate so that your boil is also mostly consistent - I'm sure you can appreciate consistency. And my point from your question is that I assume that most sugarmakers do it this way and do not actually have RO'd sap and non RO'd sap as you might have envisioned in your question.

Ken

[Andy VT]

These are good thoughts Ken! I think, overall, consistency is something I should consider more in my operation.
I also wonder if it would mess up a gradient to suddenly start adding concentrated sap to a gradient that's been established with raw sap...
I haven't messed around with gradients yet.
Apologies to the O.P. for this side conversation! Although I was hoping it would contribute something... I think the thread has helped you (and maybe more replies will continue to help you) figure out what RO would best match your operation, but wanted to throw out the idea that "some RO" would, I think, be an improvement over "no RO", if that's all the budget or other factors allow for.

[maple flats]

Just as a for instance I have and have used a 250 gph basic Deer Run RO since 2012. In that time I started with just over 600 taps all my own, then I grew to as many as 1320 taps of my own and after the first season, I started buying on shares from at first 2 other producers with as many as 400 taps combined, then at times sap from 2 others, but not every day. As such I was able to boil all of every day's sap either one day one or at times day 2. Fortunately at that time I was retired from my full time job but drove school but morning and afternoon. 2 or 3x I got so much sap, that I called my boss at the bus garage, to see if I could get a sub to cover my afternoon run. I was lucky, he always came thru so I could work hauling and processing sap and boiling sooner.
That being said, a bigger RO would have surely been better, but I managed OK. I was always home by 11:00 got enough sleep and drove bus the next morning.
The 250RO has 2 membranes each 4x40". Somehow I don't think you will be able to run the RO all day while you work, they seem to need more attention than that. They do (or at least mine has) have a high pressure shut off, which will turn the RO off at a designated pressure, mine's at 300 psi. During use I normally had to adjust the pressure as the membranes start to plug up, then every few hours run a short back wash before I can continue running. I set mine to run at 275 psi, I suppose maybe you could set it considerably lower and you might last a lot longer. A big consideration would be the concentrate, once RO'd it should be boiled now, not hours later, in addition to concentrating the sugar you also concentrate the microbes and warm the sap too.