+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: single post 4" build

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    afton, ny
    Posts
    46

    Default single post 4" build

    I would like to put together a single 4" RO to handle 400-500 taps. I am limited to 110 volts in my sap house. I 'm hoping to be able to process aprox 75 gallons of sap per hour. What kind of performance could I expect with a 3/4 hp motor and procon pump? I am looking at these items

    https://www.freshwatersystems.com/pr...13250148958251

    and

    https://www.freshwatersystems.com/pr...13250150957099

    thanks
    Tom
    2018 25 taps, two turkey fryers, 4 gallons
    2019 75 taps, Mason 2'x4, XL, 10'x12' shack
    2020 150 Taps Mason 2x4XL RO15 Bucket. no sugar%
    2021 250ish Taps Mason 2x4 XL RO 20 bucket , going to be busy

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/vZj2hHkXpKSBJqJFA

    https://www.facebook.com/kelseybrook...FIVmIotuulHl4W

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Catskill Mts, Ulster County NY
    Posts
    559

    Default

    I've been running a 1-4x40 for 3 years with nearly the same set up. My first recommendation is to go with 2-4x40s at a minimum. You might even want to look at a commercial unit. 1 is too slow for my 175 taps, so I can't imagine how it would be with 500 (unless you really enjoy boiling). Second, get the biggest Procon (Series 5 330gph or Series 6, or some other brand such as Guold) so you have the pressure (Procons look to be limited to 250psi) to concentrate to a higher level per pass. You may even need a booster pump with 2 or more membranes. I'm currently in the process of adding a second 4x40 membrane (Dow Filmtec XLE), a booster pump, low-pressure shut off, flow meters, decent needle valve, and electronic pump start/stop switch (in sequence - booster than Procon 265 on start-up).

    This season, for what is was, I would run the RO for many hours to concentrate to somewhere near 8% a 275 gal IBC tote full of 1.2-1.4% sap. Sometimes it wouldn't even get close to that when I wanted to start boiling (so I wouldn't be up all night). Also, Procons are very sensitive. You can't let it run dry for even a minute, or allow your intake to suck air, else pump failure may be in your very near future (voice of experience here, but the pumps can be rebuilt).

    It seems to me, excess RO capacity is way better than not enough, so don't cut it short to save a few bucks. Or you can be like me and pay more for it later.

    EDIT: BTW, Wateranywhere and Freshwatersystems are good sources for components.
    Last edited by Ghs57; 04-11-2021 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Added detail
    Gary / Zena Crossroads / 42˚ 00' 24" N / Hobby in Early '70s, Addiction since 2014

    160+ taps on 3/16 (45 of which are on Lunchbox Vac/Releaser)
    12x34 timber framed sap house w/attached 10x14 shed roof for storage
    2 x 6 Smoky Lake hybrid pan on Corsair arch with AUF/steam hood/preheater/concentric exhaust
    7.0 KW Sun Power PV System, Smokey Lake Filter Press/Steam Bottler, NGMP 100 gph RO

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Canaseraga ny
    Posts
    23

    Default

    I concur with Gary on this one. We had 225 taps last year on a single 4x40 membrane and increased tap count to 325 this year while adding a 2nd 4x40 membrane.

    We had to run multiple passes last year on a single membrane to get up to 8% from 1.6-2% sap. Our current evaporator boils off around 20-25 GPH so we often had to start our RO several hours prior to stay ahead. This year we added the 2nd membrane and were able to take similar range raw sap to 7.2-8% concentrate on a single pass at around 100-105 GPH total (1.25-1.3 gpm permeate and .45-.5 gpm concentrate). Pressure range 225 to 245 PSI with re-circulation loop. The RO and Evaporator work at a very close rate - so we can run them simultaneously now ( until we change everything again next year with upgrades, the addiction is real!! )

    Our machine has a .5 HP shallow well feed pump and a procon 240 with a .75 HP motor. Last year I had all wired for 120 and it worked, but rewired for 240 this year just to lower amp draws. I also used flow meters, re-circ loop with needle valves and a low pressure cut-off.

    All else being similar, we also produced way lighter syrup this year than previous years. I realize some of this is just what the trees give you, but I am also attributing some of this to only having to run sap through the RO once and right into the pans.
    Belle Hollow Syrup
    Canaseraga, NY

    325 Taps
    Smoky Lake Hybrid 2x4
    100 GPH RO
    Oil barrel Arch

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Catskill Mts, Ulster County NY
    Posts
    559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellehollow View Post
    I concur with Gary on this one. We had 225 taps last year on a single 4x40 membrane and increased tap count to 325 this year while adding a 2nd 4x40 membrane.

    We had to run multiple passes last year on a single membrane to get up to 8% from 1.6-2% sap. Our current evaporator boils off around 20-25 GPH so we often had to start our RO several hours prior to stay ahead. This year we added the 2nd membrane and were able to take similar range raw sap to 7.2-8% concentrate on a single pass at around 100-105 GPH total (1.25-1.3 gpm permeate and .45-.5 gpm concentrate). Pressure range 225 to 245 PSI with re-circulation loop. The RO and Evaporator work at a very close rate - so we can run them simultaneously now ( until we change everything again next year with upgrades, the addiction is real!! )

    Our machine has a .5 HP shallow well feed pump and a procon 240 with a .75 HP motor. Last year I had all wired for 120 and it worked, but rewired for 240 this year just to lower amp draws. I also used flow meters, re-circ loop with needle valves and a low pressure cut-off.

    All else being similar, we also produced way lighter syrup this year than previous years. I realize some of this is just what the trees give you, but I am also attributing some of this to only having to run sap through the RO once and right into the pans.
    Belle,

    Very interesting that you rewired to 240v. I've been thinking about doing the same thing with my rebuild. Also, what is your feed pump? I haven't bought one yet. And finally, what are you using for a low pressure shut off? I'm looking at several options here. (This may help Tom too)

    I also made lighter syrup this year, but I'm on a new arch (way more efficient) so boiling time was cut down significantly, whereas RO concentration remained about the same as prior years.
    Gary / Zena Crossroads / 42˚ 00' 24" N / Hobby in Early '70s, Addiction since 2014

    160+ taps on 3/16 (45 of which are on Lunchbox Vac/Releaser)
    12x34 timber framed sap house w/attached 10x14 shed roof for storage
    2 x 6 Smoky Lake hybrid pan on Corsair arch with AUF/steam hood/preheater/concentric exhaust
    7.0 KW Sun Power PV System, Smokey Lake Filter Press/Steam Bottler, NGMP 100 gph RO

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    afton, ny
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Not sure what to use for a low pressure cut off switch,
    I'm looking at this pump
    https://www.freshwatersystems.com/pr...13250707324971

    If I have a low pressure cut off switch, I would not be afraid to use a cheap feed pump from amazon
    https://www.amazon.com/Shallow-Lanch...7WRFPD56&psc=1
    2018 25 taps, two turkey fryers, 4 gallons
    2019 75 taps, Mason 2'x4, XL, 10'x12' shack
    2020 150 Taps Mason 2x4XL RO15 Bucket. no sugar%
    2021 250ish Taps Mason 2x4 XL RO 20 bucket , going to be busy

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/vZj2hHkXpKSBJqJFA

    https://www.facebook.com/kelseybrook...FIVmIotuulHl4W

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Catskill Mts, Ulster County NY
    Posts
    559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tombaisley View Post
    Not sure what to use for a low pressure cut off switch,
    I'm looking at this pump
    https://www.freshwatersystems.com/pr...13250707324971

    If I have a low pressure cut off switch, I would not be afraid to use a cheap feed pump from amazon
    https://www.amazon.com/Shallow-Lanch...7WRFPD56&psc=1

    Pump looks good. I'm looking at this low pressure shut off (recommended by another Mapletrader in another tread):

    https://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/...20043#features

    Not sure about the booster pump yet. I want to wire it 240v, so have to check specs. I'm also waiting for my second SS 4x40 housing - it's on backorder from Wateranywhere.com. And I'm still shopping for electrical components and misc parts.
    Gary / Zena Crossroads / 42˚ 00' 24" N / Hobby in Early '70s, Addiction since 2014

    160+ taps on 3/16 (45 of which are on Lunchbox Vac/Releaser)
    12x34 timber framed sap house w/attached 10x14 shed roof for storage
    2 x 6 Smoky Lake hybrid pan on Corsair arch with AUF/steam hood/preheater/concentric exhaust
    7.0 KW Sun Power PV System, Smokey Lake Filter Press/Steam Bottler, NGMP 100 gph RO

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Canaseraga ny
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Yes - that is the same pressure switch that I ordered. You can order with or without the waterproof housing. It added a little bit to the cost ( maybe $40 ) but Im not 100% on that.

    I do not recall the brand of pump we are using for a feed pump - however it is a 1/2 HP shallow well cast pump. You can also go with a SS sprinkler pump. Just either bypass the pressure switch on the pump or adjust it so the pump is always running. You dont want it to cycle.

    I have attached a few pics of our build - not great but what I had. 20210228_082228.jpg20210316_110240.jpg20210321_110034.jpg20210321_110117.jpg
    Belle Hollow Syrup
    Canaseraga, NY

    325 Taps
    Smoky Lake Hybrid 2x4
    100 GPH RO
    Oil barrel Arch

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Nashville, MI
    Posts
    413

    Default

    BelleHollow, How old is the young man you have helping you in the third and fourth pictures, He certainly takes his job seriously. I was very impressed by the photos.
    2004 - 2012 2x3 flat pan 25 to 60 taps
    2012 2x3 new divided pan w/draw off 55 taps
    2018 - didn't boil surgery - bought new evaporator
    2019 new SML 2x4 raised flue high output evap. 65 taps
    made 17 gal syrup
    2020 - only put out 53 taps - made 16.25 gal syrup
    2021 - going for 50 bags and 50 on tubing

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Canaseraga ny
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdiamond View Post
    BelleHollow, How old is the young man you have helping you in the third and fourth pictures, He certainly takes his job seriously. I was very impressed by the photos.
    Those are my boys...the one adjusting the r/o is 8...he loves the science behind the syrup..he will measure bryx and color transmittance all day if he could...

    Yea, we have tweaked the r/o a few times over the last few years to get it where we want it. Works great for us. We are expanding so depending on how many taps we add next year, may get one more year out of her. Probably won't go over 500 taps using that r/o. I have a 5 hp goulds ss multistage pump waiting for the new build!!

    I will be down at the sugar shack next week to finish cleaning up and acid wash the membranes before putting them away. I can get better pictures for you guys then!
    Belle Hollow Syrup
    Canaseraga, NY

    325 Taps
    Smoky Lake Hybrid 2x4
    100 GPH RO
    Oil barrel Arch

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Catskill Mts, Ulster County NY
    Posts
    559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellehollow View Post
    Yes - that is the same pressure switch that I ordered. You can order with or without the waterproof housing. It added a little bit to the cost ( maybe $40 ) but Im not 100% on that.

    I do not recall the brand of pump we are using for a feed pump - however it is a 1/2 HP shallow well cast pump. You can also go with a SS sprinkler pump. Just either bypass the pressure switch on the pump or adjust it so the pump is always running. You dont want it to cycle.

    I have attached a few pics of our build - not great but what I had. Attachment 22354Attachment 22356Attachment 22357Attachment 22358
    Very nice. Questions: I see you have two needle valves, but I can't read the labels. My unit is pretty simple, so I'm interested in how you designed the flow (and if you have a diagram). I also like the SS filter housing - which one is it? (I have had trouble with an air leak in my plastic filter housing) I'm waiting for parts, but hope to have pictures sometime soon.
    Gary / Zena Crossroads / 42˚ 00' 24" N / Hobby in Early '70s, Addiction since 2014

    160+ taps on 3/16 (45 of which are on Lunchbox Vac/Releaser)
    12x34 timber framed sap house w/attached 10x14 shed roof for storage
    2 x 6 Smoky Lake hybrid pan on Corsair arch with AUF/steam hood/preheater/concentric exhaust
    7.0 KW Sun Power PV System, Smokey Lake Filter Press/Steam Bottler, NGMP 100 gph RO

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts