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Thread: CV Spouts - Still Preferred?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissville maples View Post
    ... if vacuum can pull sap from one side of the tree to the other ...
    Vacuum can pull sap from one side of the tree to the other...but ONLY after SEVERAL days of no-freeze conditions. The reality is that in many seasons a good share of the flows only last a few hours to one day long before the tree freezes again, so we are not ever getting to that condition (vacuum pulling sap across the tree). We did not drain the tree system to the largest extent possible given the time available. That means we are leaving sap inside the tree that we might have extracted had we been able to exploit the anatomy of the tree more optimally with a better spout design. It is not a question of how MUCH sap we can get out....it becomes a matter of how FAST we can get sap out before it is not possible to get it all out (due to a freeze).

    If your goal was to put out a house fire, would you rather do it with a garden hose or a firehose? It is a matter of getting the most flow out of the system as quickly as possible. The only difference is we're not trying to put out a fire, we're trying to extract sap ($) from the tree as quickly as we can.

    It's kind of like the studies I've read about driving your spouts in too far I have been very focused on this in the last couple years and it has caused me more harm than good.
    I do agree that there is a fine line. As we wrote, it's a "Goldilocks" problem. Too shallow driven is bad...too deeply driven is bad...just right is good. Finding that "sweet spot" is not always easy, and it is probably best to go just a hair deeper (to reduce heaving) than a hair too shallow.

    Clearly overdriving is bad and clearly blocking off too much wood with regular spouts is also not optimal. Otherwise, why not drive a 3/4" deep taphole and drive it in 1/2" and leave only a 1/4" gap in the tree. I guarantee you that doing that will result in poor yield even with great vacuum. We need to sever a certain amount of wood vessels to maximize flow from the taphole. The next step is to maximize flow RATE from the taphole by reducing wood blockage in the shallowest wood rings.

    At the end of the day you can only get so much sap out of a tree in a season ...
    We have found several ways to get MORE sap from a tree over a season, some are simply not doable for one reason or another...others are not economical given current syrup prices (dual lateral/dual droplines are a good example). But there is clearly more sap available in a tree than what we are getting via current standard practices.

    You are right that seasons are all different. Some years we saw small (but detectable) gains in sap yields with the new spout (shorter barrel with barbs) if there was an abundance of long-slow thaws. Other years we saw sizeable gains with it if there were a lot of short-fast thaws followed by a freeze. All depended upon the characteristics of the flow periods.

    I dunno proofs in the pudding
    Agreed.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 04-02-2024 at 10:03 AM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Lake County Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Vacuum can pull sap from one side of the tree to the other...but ONLY after SEVERAL days of no-freeze conditions. The reality is that in many seasons a good share of the flows only last a few hours to one day long before the tree freezes again, so we are not ever getting to that condition (vacuum pulling sap across the tree). We did not drain the tree system to the largest extent possible given the time available. That means we are leaving sap inside the tree that we might have extracted had we been able to exploit the anatomy of the tree more optimally with a better spout design. It is not a question of how MUCH sap we can get out....it becomes a matter of how FAST we can get sap out before it is not possible to get it all out (due to a freeze).

    If your goal was to put out a house fire, would you rather do it with a garden hose or a firehose? It is a matter of getting the most flow out of the system as quickly as possible. The only difference is we're not trying to put out a fire, we're trying to extract sap ($) from the tree as quickly as we can.



    I do agree that there is a fine line. As we wrote, it's a "Goldilocks" problem. Too shallow driven is bad...too deeply driven is bad...just right is good. Finding that "sweet spot" is not always easy, and it is probably best to go just a hair deeper (to reduce heaving) than a hair too shallow.

    Clearly overdriving is bad and clearly blocking off too much wood with regular spouts is also not optimal. Otherwise, why not drive a 3/4" deep taphole and drive it in 1/2" and leave only a 1/4" gap in the tree. I guarantee you that doing that will result in poor yield even with great vacuum. We need to sever a certain amount of wood vessels to maximize flow from the taphole. The next step is to maximize flow RATE from the taphole by reducing wood blockage in the shallowest wood rings.



    We have found several ways to get MORE sap from a tree over a season, some are simply not doable for one reason or another...others are not economical given current syrup prices (dual lateral/dual droplines are a good example). But there is clearly more sap available in a tree than what we are getting via current standard practices.

    You are right that seasons are all different. Some years we saw small (but detectable) gains in sap yields with the new spout (shorter barrel with barbs) if there was an abundance of long-slow thaws. Other years we saw sizeable gains with it if there were a lot of short-fast thaws followed by a freeze. All depended upon the characteristics of the flow periods.

    Agreed.
    This is one of the better threads we've had in a while.
    Good, candid banter here between Dr. Tim and Blissville Maples...and all without poking the other in the eye.
    Thanks.
    John Allin

    14x18 Hemlock Timber Frame Sugar House 2009
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  3. #43
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    Jan 2021
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    Upstate NY
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    Thanks for all the great info guys. I only have 50 taps on gravity 5/16 split up into two separate runs. One of my runs is along a stone wall fence with southern exposure to a hay field so it gets lot of sun, the other is another stonewall fence but its running north/south and in the woods. The sunny run almost always outperforms the shady woods trees by a decent margin (especially early season). I have been running the CV spouts the last few years just to try and prolong my taphole life (not running vacuum or anything). I think next season i will keep the CV spouts for the sunny run and try the barbed spouts on my shady trees. I think that will help get a little more production out of the colder/shady trees based on my understanding of what benefits they offer.

  4. #44
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    Apr 2012
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    poultney vermont
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Good questions. Sap CAN move sideways, but does so about 10x slower than moving vertically. The issue isn’t about whether or not sap CAN move across rings, but rather how FAST it moves out. Wood vessels (the “pipes” in a tree) are oriented vertically, so sap runs up/down quite easily. Going sideways it has to run through cell walls. In short runs, you will only get a partial run of sap from the tree before it freezes up again. Get it out faster, you get more sap. In some years considerably more. In long runs (several days) it won’t make a lot of difference. With short runs it’ll make a big difference.

    The structure of wood is key in understanding this. The vessels (pipes) that sap moves through in maple wood are oriented up/down and move the vast majority of sap. Going sideways can occur, but is far more difficult and/or slow. You can think of a chunk of the wood stem as a dense sponge (or sawdust), but with small straws embedded throughout it. If you had a funnel on the top and poured water in, nearly all the water would flow down through the straws, with only a small amount moving from sawdust particle to particle (along the cell walls). Now you can make the water move through the sponge/sawdust, but it will take a LOT longer to get through. That's the point...during a thaw, you not only want to get sap out, but because the thaw isn't going to last long, you want to get as much out as fast as you can get it out.

    Think of it this way…would you prefer to drink out of a straw or suck water through a sponge?
    Very good analogies. Ohhhh there's so much more to a maple tree than people realize.

    I just wish they didnt plug up as much. Why not a larger ball and seat for it maybe in the elbow not near the tree? The reason for this would be to allow small pieces of sawdust or gunk to pass. So many times I see that little black ball holding boogers and I feel because the runber ball is soft it induces bacteria growth quicker than the polycarbonate making the issue worse.

    When I'm in the woods observing it seems like the sap is having a hard time getting past all of this creating a restriction. I go from tree to tree making a low spot in each drop line seeing which ones fill and which ones don't.

    One tree with new drop and regular spout will fill right up, next one will be an old drop with cv and it will fill. Next one may be a CV and drop stays dry when i make low spot, this occurs fairly often. Pull any of them spouts and ream youll get 100% flow again which tells me exactly what happened!

    Id like to have a tubing system consisting of two tap trees with two separate main lines. One main line all CDs one main line all regular spouts. This would all be done during the same season to eliminate seasonal differences. The trees would both be tapped on the same side north or south One drop would have a CD One drop would have a regular spout. Everything would be identical. I feel this is the only way you could honestly test these check valves. Without spending hours that I don't have going back to your studies I can't say if this has been done although i should know ive read them all 5x.

    I dunno im wary of it all, but as I've always said the concept is there. It just seems to me that if no sap ever got back the tap hole that tapole would never dry out or take 6 months to do so.

    Got to be a way to re design these to have a larger orfice that doesn't plug as easy and allows a more consistent seal of the ball. What about CV in the "t" or that would allow some degree of backflow? Im always thinking ��
    Last edited by blissville maples; 04-04-2024 at 08:32 AM.
    18x30 sugarshack
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  5. #45
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    Mar 2015
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    Wind Lake, WI
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    Maybe not a ball, but a circular flap across the full width? Think reed valve on a two-stroke....

    I may be able to 3D print the concept.

    This is a great thread, lots of good info!
    42.82N
    2015 - Small operation. 25 buckets. One excited 5 year old and one 35 year old that feels 5 again.
    2016 - One year older. New Homemade 2x4 Arch, Smoky Lake Pan and looking at 52 maples, 17 box elders and 2 walnut trees.
    2017 - Shurflo 4008 hooked to 42 stingy silver maples and a few Norways. A couple buckets on sugars and Norways. 10 box elders.
    2018 - ...a few more taps.
    2019 - ...more taps on 3/16 gravity. This spiral is heading downward in a hurry.
    2020 - 4x400 RO - RB20 (uh-oh!)

  6. #46
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    Apr 2012
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    poultney vermont
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    I cannot seem to scroll up and down to edit, will have to fill in the blanks sorry, i love my phone!
    18x30 sugarshack
    5100 taps high vac
    3x10 inferno with steampan
    7'' wes fab filter press
    10'' cdl air filter press
    D&G 3 post reverse osmosis w/recirculation

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