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Thread: Checking what VT sugar makers are doing

  1. #3281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatetreehugger View Post
    ...what seems to be the biggest influence in low sugar content? Water, drought, sun, tree anatomy, tree health, soil nutrients, something I've missed?
    All of the above and more. Not much really seems to affect sap flow to any great extent EXCEPT the conditions during the season.

    Sap sugar content (SSC) has a huge number of variables that affect it, but none of them to an overriding degree. I did some conference presentations on this a few years back. We have a huge data set of SSC and environmental (temps, rain, etc.) and biological values here at PMRC. I've done some preliminary analysis of these data and found several interesting linear relationships (correlations), but I intend to spend part of my final year at work doing much more in-depth analysis of these data. Stay tuned.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  2. #3282
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    All of the above and more. Not much really seems to affect sap flow to any great extent EXCEPT the conditions during the season.

    I intend to spend part of my final year at work doing much more in-depth analysis of these data. Stay tuned.
    Are you hinting at something here?

  3. #3283
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecp View Post
    Are you hinting at something here?
    Not hinting at all. I am retiring June 30, 2023 (15+ months from now).
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  4. #3284
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    last 3 hauls were .75gpt testing 2%, 1gpt testing 2.5% and .75gpt testing 2.4% making very beautiful dark amber(very red color)

  5. #3285
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Not hinting at all. I am retiring June 30, 2023 (15+ months from now).
    Congratulations Dr. Perkins on your impending retirement. I know it's a year away, but I just want to say thank you for your service to the maple industry. I know that we've all benefited greatly from your efforts. Your retirement is well earned.

    Randy


    Randy

    Toad Hill Maple Farm

    http://ToadHillMaple.com/

    3650 Taps on Vacuum for 2010 & still expanding
    56'x64' Timberframe Sugarhouse - New for 2011
    3x10 Leader Vortex w/ Max Flue Pan & SteamAway
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    777 Acres in the Adirondack Mountains

  6. #3286
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    Nooooo... Tim should be a consultant. We will definitely miss your constant great feedback here at this site. Helping some backyarders face to face would be cool. Do some videos how best to do super small operations through medium operations.

  7. #3287
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    I'm also trying to finish up my first boil of the season. I'm about 20 percent right now. Had to boil and melt frozen buckets over the evap pan. So frustrating. I'll let you know how mine turns out when it's done.

  8. #3288
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Sounds like it was not seeds that got damaged, but flowers. These don't typically require a lot of energy to form, and if killed at the early stages the loss would be minimal in terms of affecting the overall carbohydrate status of affected trees. Most of the energy going into forming seeds happens during the actual growing season when there is (assuming good growing conditions) adequate carb supply available. If there isn't for some reason (drought being a big one), then the seeds can abort to cut the losses to the tree.



    Not really...the carb balance in the tree is accumulated, used, and dispersed over many years. The average sap sugar coming from a tree comes out to about 3 yrs old, but spans anyone from just a few months old to several decades old (but the average is 3 yrs). The sugar that makes up the sap we collect and syrup we make is derived from several years of growth and tree rings. Sugar tends to go down as we go deeper into the trunk (into older tree rings), partly because some of the sugar in older rings gets used up. There is also the issue of reduced hydraulic conductivity...vessels become less functional as we get deeper. So overall, more sugar and more sap from the outer rings to the inner rings.

    Trees don't "anticipate" things the way people do. If the conditions are right, they'll respond. However, one of the conditions for something like producing seeds is to have adequate carbohydrate reserves to accomplish that. Trees that have decent sun exposure tend to have reasonable reserves. Some amount of that is lost when sapwood turns to heartwood in the tree. Any carbs left in those rings is cut off from the trees vascular system and thus no longer available.



    They are making some carbs early on, but it takes a little while (a few weeks depending on the weather) for photosynthetic function to ramp up to maximum productivity. Similarly, when they turn color in the fall there is some continued export of carbs for a while.



    Great question. The first thing to keep in mind is that air temperature isn't the critical thing...it is sap temperature in the branches and stem, and wood doesn't change temperature nearly as quickly during freezing and thawing as air does and not all the wood is at the same temperature. The branches freeze first, and start to generate a vacuum immediately upon freezing. The transition from liquid to solid (liquid to ice) is critical. It causes a huge vapor pressure deficit (humidity is very low over ice compared to humidity when liquid is present), which helps to generate the negative pressure (vacuum) to result in water uptake. This vacuum is propagated through the rest of the tree as the tree branches/wood freezes, and eventually is transmitted down into the roots where water is drawn in. That is why a nice slow freeze is good for water uptake. What is kind of weird is that this occurs in different parts of the tree at different times since them temperature is not the same throughout. So for example, the core (or north side) of the tree may still be frozen, so not participate in flow or uptake at all. The branches might be freezing up, generating a suction, but the stem might still have some stem pressure in it for a time. Over time though there is this wave of suction that builds up and moves through the stem to cause uptake.

    On the flip side, when the tree thaws, there is essentially no pressure at all, then all of a sudden the pressure spikes upward to a peak value, then stem pressure decays downward over the next few days as sap flows out.

    Very very interesting information, I'll have to read again when more time. I guess in thinking anything that got damaged had probably put minimal effort into developing yet, vs if they had been more developed then frost hit.

    It's pretty amazing how these trees work. And I guess without years of studies that noone else would have time, money, and desire to do it's hard to imagine stem pressure, trunk pressure and when the two are in different states!! Makes me wonder the types of setups it takes to harness this information!

    Well hopefully there is enough frozen trunk and stem in trees to get us thru Thursday and Friday! See a slight cool down but not much for freeze night.

    Ran good starting midday yesterday. Warmer bushes are approaching 1.5gpt in just 20 hrs. Sugar holding but that will change by end of week. Biggest bonus is the lack of niter in pans, 500 gals made and no pan cleaning!! That's awesome
    18x30 sugarshack
    5100 taps high vac
    3x10 inferno with steampan
    7'' wes fab filter press
    10'' cdl air filter press
    D&G 3 post reverse osmosis w/recirculation

  9. #3289
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    Quote Originally Posted by randolphvt View Post
    Nooooo... Tim should be a consultant. We will definitely miss your constant great feedback here at this site. Helping some backyarders face to face would be cool. Do some videos how best to do super small operations through medium operations.
    I will say the information dr tim has acquired in maple is impressive, I've many facts stored in my brain from reading, going out and verifying, and adjusting. I love knowledge it's an amazing thing. I will say it's nice to have someone to verify thoughts and hypothesis with that you know is up to smuff on their information!

    Great job Dr Tim in devoting oneself to mastering the art and craft of maple.
    18x30 sugarshack
    5100 taps high vac
    3x10 inferno with steampan
    7'' wes fab filter press
    10'' cdl air filter press
    D&G 3 post reverse osmosis w/recirculation

  10. #3290
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissville maples View Post
    Well hopefully there is enough frozen trunk and stem in trees to get us thru Thursday and Friday! See a slight cool down but not much for freeze night.
    Still early enough that it shouldn't bother...as long as temps don't get up into the high 60s for several days.

    Actually, for those people like you who are on high vacuum, you'll continue to get some sap and sugar for a long time after a freeze. Eventually after the entire stem has thawed and you've pulled all the moisture out from above and around the taphole, you'll start to pull water right out of the ground and up through the stem and out the taphole. Sap sugar will start to drop off at that point, but you'll still get some. At that point the tree is essentially a sugar-filled straw stuck in the ground.

    Note...the above does NOT work on gravity. Sap flow will eventually stop after a few days, with perhaps a bit of weeping flows if the temps continue to rise.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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