Last weekend (March 23) I used softened well water to make 110 gallons of permeate. I then removed the 5 micron filter and used membrane flush from RO Bucket for about 20 minutes and left it soak for the week. Then rinsed with the permeate replaced the 5 micron filter and started running sap.
how did you soften the well water? I am out of permeate.
2025 - 48 taps, all but 8 on gravity tubing
2024 - New Maine resident, 12X16 sugar shack under construction
2019 - New 12X12 boiling pavilion
2018 - New Mason 2X3 Hobby XL and homemade RO
What about letting each permeate line drain seperate, then boiling a sample from each. Possibly you have only one bad unit and can remove it from the system and replace when your new housings arrive. Good luck and keep us posted!
Flushing
Try recirculating 10 gallons of well water through the system for 30 minutes. Run it dry, and then process some sap. After 10 minutes of processing take a concentrate and permeate test.
What kind of membranes are you using (are they TFW RO or nano?). Maybe send the model number?
Sounds like a membrane issue. Perhaps the membrane flush isn't thoroughly rinsed out (you generally only need to use it when performance drops).
Test each permeate separately for sugar (with your refractometer) and see if it is a single membrane passing sugar or all of them.
I notice a majority of brand new membranes will pass up to .5% sugar. After 50 gallons of sap or a good permeate rinse, however, the number should drop to zero. Are you able to measure TDS levels in the permeate and sap (with a conductivity meter?).
A bad upper lip seal wouldn't cause an issue with permeate quality. It would cause a decrease in permeate quantity (sap wouldn't be forced through the membrane, it would leak past the seal and exit the concentrate discharge).
Good Luck!
~Carl
My house has a water softener installed.Originally Posted by eustis22
This sounds like a bad membrane and I would guess by that amount of sugar in the permeate that it is most likely your 2nd or 3rd one in series. Attach separate lines to each housing for your permeate - collect each one and test as was suggested earlier. This will isolate the bad one and take it out of the system.
2' x 3' backyard evaporator with homemade steam hood
38.5 gallons produced in 2023
104 taps all on 3/16" tubing
4" x 40" homemade RO built for 2023
https://sites.google.com/view/mattat...aplesyrup/home
The membranes I'm using are Membrane Solutions ROULP-2012-150.
I can try your idea of running well water for 10 minutes and then test the sap after minutes. I don't have access to a conductivity meter.
I'll then try to run some sap through each of the 5 membranes 1 at a time and do the boil test.
This will have to wait until the weekend as I work full-time and I need to boil sap in the evenings.
I ordered 5 new housings and 5 new membranes (from 2 different suppliers). Those will be here on Thursday.
The new membranes are GE FX12M. If nothing else I'll have them for the future. Hopefully we can get the ones I have to work.
Thanks everyone. I'll keep you posted.
Just buy a cheap tds meter and you should be able to tell which one is bad very quickly. A lot faster than boiling.
2015 - 8 buckets, 332L sap, 8.5L syrup - Barrel evaporator, 2 steam pans
2016 - 8 buckets, 432L sap
2017 - 10 bags, 470L sap, 9L syrup
2018 - 20 bags, 1050L sap, 17.6L syrup
2019 - 20 bags, 970L sap, 22.2L syrup
2020 - 17 bags, 813L sap, 17L syrup
Nothing changed in my system except that the membranes soaked in RO preservative during the week.
Ran softened well water at no pressure 5 min to flush out soap. No pressure = 18.5 psi on the gauge between the 5 micron filter and the first housing and 0 psi on the gauge before the pressure controller on concentrate line. Does this indicate an issue?
Put 5 micron filter in and recirced softened well water at no pressure for 30 min.
Ran the system dry and removed water from the 5 micron filter housing and replaced with new filter.
Processed sap for ½ hour at 125 psi before the first housing with each line into 7 gallon buckets. (the needle jumps around 122-131) (steady 119 psi just before the pressure control on the concentrate line).
After ½ hour I had about 6.5 gallons in the permeate bucket and about 2 gallons in the concentrate bucket.
Raw sap: 2.6 brix
Concentrate: 7.9 brix
Permeate: 1.8 brix
Processed sap for another ½ hour at 100 psi before the first housing with each line into 7 gallon buckets. (the needle varies, not jumps around, 96-103) (steady 86.5 psi just before the pressure control on the concentrate line)
After ½ hour I had about 6 gallons in the permeate bucket and about 4 gallons in the concentrate bucket
Raw sap: 2.6 brix
Concentrate: 5.4 brix
Permeate: 1.8 brix
I’m going to run the system as is at 125 psi this afternoon to process and boil the sap I have. I’ll hold the permeate in tanks and recirc it later to rinse the system and possibly pull some of that sugar out. Tomorrow morning I’ll run sap to each housing to see if I can isolate if 1 is passing the sugar. I have 5 new housings and membranes here that I can swap out if necessary.
BTW: I checked around town for a TDS meter and couldn’t find one. My multimeter measures continuity down to 20M but with 2 probes you can’t hold them at a consistent distance from each other to get a constant reading.
Boiled sap for 4 hours this afternoon with the RO feeding the head tank. I sure went through the sap compared to boiling raw. Started with the head tank full and only had to refill it once and only because I don't like running with it less than half full.
Pressure at the end of the run was the same as the start. I checked my permeate coming from the line at the end of the run and it was 1.5 brix. Boiled 1/2 gallon of that down to 16 ounces. Checked at room temp and got 5 Brix.
I'm now recircing my permeate through the RO to flush it and hopefully get some of that sugar back. I adjusted pressure so that I'm getting just a steady drip from the concentrate line (130 psi). I have the permeate line running back to the permeate barrels. After recircing for a couple hours I'll check the brix from each line and let you know. I'll run it like this overnight and then flush with permeate at low pressure in the morning.
I should have time tomorrow to test the brix coming from each individual housing.
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