Heating trees through a cold snap...

[NTBugtraq]

I am disappointed that nobody agreed, or denied, my belief that its barometric pressure, not temperature, that makes sap flow.

[Helicopter Seeds]

We rarely see this much fighting and arguing on this forum, and it seems that when opinions are so diametrically opposed, the reality lies somewhere in between.

Fundamentally, for a small sugarbush, it appears to be counterproductive to waste all that fuel to warm the trees.

We should also avoid the hypocrisy of trashing technical ideas when we all use many ourselves. I don't see the anger against RO systems, I don't personally like them but that is just me. People use ice to keep sap cool, and use vacuum to get more out of trees. Nobody is innocent here.

And before we trash the original poster, remember there are farming precedents for crop management using thermal techniques.
Citrus farmers in the south do use fuel to create a smog and slightly raise temperature to prevent exposure to freezing.

Also, don't forget that tobacco farmers for years have planted their crop "in the shade". quite literally under a tent of fabric. It is course material that actually reflects some of the sunlight, allowing the rain and irrigation to drip easily through.

When you consider the study of cut saplings to suck right out of a stem, and change the very nature of what we call a crop, you have to think that is just as crazy.

Mark my words, maple crops of future of small trees, tended and irrigated like any other crop, will involve thermal management techniques to make the cold nights colder and the warm days warmer.

There will still be plenty of people using more traditional methods. No reason to get upset.

[Waynehere]

I am disappointed that nobody agreed, or denied, my belief that its barometric pressure, not temperature, that makes sap flow.

I somewhat agree with you about the pressure, but you also need the trees thawed out for it to run as well. I have been watching the pressure a lot this season and am amazed to see the sap flow heavier when the pressure rises. I also have vac on and believe I was pulling sap right out of the ground too, way after the sap should be all drained out of the trees.

[Galena]

We rarely see this much fighting and arguing on this forum, and it seems that when opinions are so diametrically opposed, the reality lies somewhere in between.

Fundamentally, for a small sugarbush, it appears to be counterproductive to waste all that fuel to warm the trees.

We should also avoid the hypocrisy of trashing technical ideas when we all use many ourselves. I don't see the anger against RO systems, I don't personally like them but that is just me. People use ice to keep sap cool, and use vacuum to get more out of trees. Nobody is innocent here.

And before we trash the original poster, remember there are farming precedents for crop management using thermal techniques.
Citrus farmers in the south do use fuel to create a smog and slightly raise temperature to prevent exposure to freezing.

Also, don't forget that tobacco farmers for years have planted their crop "in the shade". quite literally under a tent of fabric. It is course material that actually reflects some of the sunlight, allowing the rain and irrigation to drip easily through.

When you consider the study of cut saplings to suck right out of a stem, and change the very nature of what we call a crop, you have to think that is just as crazy.

Mark my words, maple crops of future of small trees, tended and irrigated like any other crop, will involve thermal management techniques to make the cold nights colder and the warm days warmer.

There will still be plenty of people using more traditional methods. No reason to get upset.

I am all for technological advances, even if I don't agree in principle with things like vacuum. But then last season I did visit a bush which is owned by a commercial producer and I could soon see why vacuum would make sense. And if you're a commercial producer with a demand to meet, that's fine by me. I have to admit I am not at all a fan of the sapling thing - I think it's essentially shooting yourself in the foot - but at least that research is being carried out by Dr Tim and co, people who know pretty much everything there is to know about maples and sugaring.

What upsets me most is the OP's entirely blinkered reasons for trying to force his trees to produce a large amount of sap in a very short period of time, and using technology that isn't even developed with maples in mind. Not to mention that it probably won't even work because maples are not fruit trees. Plain and simple. Oh and it's dangerous etc. I've had my say and then some already on this thread, I am not going to bother saying any more.

[bigschuss]

I am disappointed that nobody agreed, or denied, my belief that its barometric pressure, not temperature, that makes sap flow.

I'm not be snarky here...please don't take it that way...but don't you think the good people at research universities across the US and Canada have figured this out all ready?

My layman's observation...if it was barometric pressure, wouldn't the sap flow year round then? The barometer fluctuates 365 days of the year. Freeze thaw cycles only occur in that roughly 6 week window we all know and love. Those changes in temperature (warming of a tree during the day) cause pressure differences inside the tree (positive pressure) which causes sap to flow. The barometer can and does cause changes in temp. Maybe what you're observing is correlated, bot not causal.

[Clinkis]

This is old research. Sap flow is effected by BOTH temperature and pressure. Researchers figured out decades ago that barometric pressure effects sap flow. Hence why vacuum is so effective which creates low pressure at the tap holes. But you still need the freeze thaw cycles to recharge the trees and sap won't flow if it's frozen no matter what the pressure.

[IWDaddo]

Wow. So, as the OP for this thread, I have indeed listened to what everyone has said, as I have immense respect for those who have trod this path before me. I've only been sugaring for 4 years, and relied heavily on you all for my arch build, my tubing system, and the tricks of the hydrometer trade. I lurked for more than a year before posting so as not to be a drive-by question-asker who get what he wants and then bolts.

I started tapping our trees because I wanted to work hard to see what my little plot of land could create for us, hence also the orchard of various fruit trees. Galena said I was "clearly a dumbass city person". Forget that I grew up in rural Iowa and the piedmont of North Carolina, I tap our trees because I never wanted to be the kind of city person with no respect for those getting their hands dirty.

Since he also found time to disparage my parenting, my scheme was in the spirit of both hard work and the joy of experimentation. I have about 15 maples — not three, as has been said — and I did indeed make a baseline the first day to have as comparison, as well as gallons recorded from past years. My "preshus" daughter and I had a great time writing it all down and braving the late-night cold to collect the results.

In short, my experiment WORKED. I was excited to post pictures and try to narrate exactly what I did, but after watching what happened to this thread, I realized I didn't owe anybody anything. This board is just another example of how the anonymity of the internet allows for atrocious behavior, letting people say things that would result in a fistfight in real life.

I can't help but think this is also why we live in desperate political times; the rage on here, for someone you don't know from Adam, sounds eerily familiar. One of the reasons I'm doing this is to GET AWAY from that horrorshow. The posters with the most vitriol: I'm sorry, but are you curing cancer? Feeding the hungry? If you're supporting your family with this business, then fair enough, but most of us are doing the same thing: making pancakes better.

That doesn't mean it can't be a passion, or that we shouldn't piss off our spouses by purchasing equipment that takes over the yard, or that we oughtn't spend too much time on these boards. It doesn't even mean I'm not a total idiot. But I think it does mean being relatively decent.