+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: steamaway vs piggyback vs more RO membranes

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    central NY
    Posts
    12

    Default steamaway vs piggyback vs more RO membranes

    Hi everyone,
    We are looking for some non salesman to give us some honest input on our situation. We have a 2x6 Ailger oil fired with a Lapierre 2 membrane RO. We have expanded to about 1500 taps, and last year this set up worked pretty well, didn't spend any late nights in the sugarhouse, like we did before the RO even with fewer taps. We are adding a vac this year, and will be adding some more taps in the coming years. So we are trying to figure out where is the best place to gain efficiency for the cost. We have considered going to a larger evap., but the problem with that comes when we have a small run. Last year, there were runs when we barely had enough sap to put through the RO and start boiling. Some say just don't concentrate as much, but that is not the cost effective payback we are looking for out of the RO. I know last year wasn't the greatest year, but there will be more of those, and I know the vac will pull more sap, which should give us enough sap on those small runs to boil. But when we get a large run, we will be spending a lot of hours in the sugarhouse if we don't improve efficiency.

    We are thinking that making this set up work better, may be our best bet for now. Our question is, where is the money best spent?

    We are trying to weigh the cost/benefits of adding membranes, or adding a piggyback or steamaway, or is there any other options out there? The piggyback ads say they make you 60% - 75% more efficient, but how does that translate in our situation. I have read posts that say efficiency is greatly lost on a smaller evap. like ours. And of course they are not cheap, but I guess there is no annual maintenance costs, but apparently we may not gain much either for our investment.

    Any input would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    central NY
    Posts
    12

    Default correction

    Just read my post and saw I put 2X6, instead Of 2X8 oil fired.
    Thanks

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Northwest Pa
    Posts
    902

    Smile

    1metzger; We have a wood fired Waterloo/Small raised flue 2x6 with a Leader 2x4 steamaway on top. We can get give or take 50 gallons per hour with it set the way it is . We will be putting a Lapierre 150 RO ahead of it this year. we also have had the problem of late night boils!. And a couple of 60 hour marathons.We will have at or nearly at 1000 taps on vac this season so we will have a lot better numbers starting next week as the weather is supposed to get more like sugar season here.
    Check out our pic on the attached link

    Jim
    Maple consultant for 50 years

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Marlborough, NH
    Posts
    163

    Default

    We have a 3'x8' Steam-Away on a 3'x12' wood fired evaporator and I must admit that it works great. There is no question that we get the full 75% increase in efficiency out of it, as it brings the boiling rate of the 3'x12' to around 175 gallons per hour. On the other hand, we have not yet seen the sap temperature rise quite to the 200 degree mark as advertised. When the fire is burning really hot it will peak at about 190 degrees. Last year we ran about 1600 taps on it, but in past years it has seen upwards of 2200. We can also start the evaporator for volumes of sap as low as 100 gallons if we feel it is necessary. (In part this is because we boil until the main storage tanks are empty, still leaving the tank that feeds the evaporator about half full. This might be around 30 or 40 gallons.)
    In your case I would see a Steam-Away as a good investment becuase you would be able to boil more sap with the same amount of oil. I would think that it would pay off based on that alone.
    In terms of the Piggyback, I honestly don't know that much about it. I think that somehow it is slightly different from the Steam-Away and from what I've heard people have had better luck with the Steam-Away. Again though, I don't know specifically why.
    I hope this helps with your decision.
    Scott
    UNH Environmental Research Group
    Dublin School "Maple Guy"
    Around 1300 taps for 2010
    3x12 Grimm and Steam Away
    2 1-ton trucks, Polaris Ranger, plenty of tractors
    http://www.dublinschool.org/home/con...student%20life
    www.collsfarmllc.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Orwell,Vt.
    Posts
    1,126

    Default

    You and I are in the same boat basically. I am near to putting on another 1500 taps on my 2.5x8, which will put us near 55oo taps. If I were to spend another $5500.00, it would be in another membrane. Steam-aways and Piggybacks are good quality pieces of equipment, but teamed up with an RO, you will spend hours a day cleaning them. They get a tremendous amount of scale buildup in them. You will get more effiency out of a new membrane. I would try to find ways to get more work out of my RO. What % concentrate are you going to? The difference between 8% and 12% concentrate is huge! This will also cut your fuel bill down. I have been able to get my fuel to syrup ratio down to 1/3 gal oil to 1 gal syrup. Feel free to pm me if you would like to here more.
    2 1/2 x8 Lapierre Waterloo-Small (oil fired)
    Leader Steamaway
    1200 gph Lapierre RO
    1800 taps
    http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/j...ks/Sugarhouse/


    Mike Christian
    505 Main St. Orwell, Vt.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    brandon, ny
    Posts
    121

    Default

    We have a 3x10 woofired evaporator and last year we added a steamaway(3x6). We couldn't be more pleased. Efficiency has increased to the 75% as advertised, burnt a heck of alot less wood and we get more hot water than anyone could ever use, which is handy for cleaning up. As far as maintanence goes with the steamaway, ther is very little. We did take a day last year about half way through the season and cleaned the entire evaporator and steamaway then cleaned everything again at the end of the season, that was it. I have never used a steamaway along with an RO but I don't think you would be disappointed if you invested in a steamaway. I have no experience with a piggyback so can't really tell you anything about them.
    Last edited by jdj; 02-18-2008 at 03:33 PM.
    Leader 3x10 drop flue oil fired
    steamaway
    1,000 buckets/2500-3500 on vacuum for 2010
    Springtech 1000gph RO
    AC 180 diesel
    AC 185 diesel
    AC 5015 4wd

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Orwell,Vt.
    Posts
    1,126

    Default

    If I were boiling raw sap, I would probably go with a Steam-away. Most of the guys up here in Vt. that have RO and Steamaway have extensive wash set ups to acid wash their steamaways each day. The problem with RO and Steamaways is that the air holes in the Steamaway plug with nitre. Another way to improve the perfomance of your rig is to add air injection. I don't know true #s, but I bet it will increase efficiency by 30%.
    I know that it seems like I really don't like Steamaways, but that the fact is you can get much more efficiency out of an RO.
    2 1/2 x8 Lapierre Waterloo-Small (oil fired)
    Leader Steamaway
    1200 gph Lapierre RO
    1800 taps
    http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/j...ks/Sugarhouse/


    Mike Christian
    505 Main St. Orwell, Vt.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    South Lincoln,vermont
    Posts
    1,802

    Default

    I agree with Mike as a steam away or a piggy back are great machines, but they only work when you do. As a former salesman of both I prefer the piggyback as they get better performance, but that is why they make Chevies and Fords so that everybody has one they like.
    Success is not final,failure is not fatal.It is courage to continue that really counts

    “I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.”

    – Thomas Edison

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    A, A shrewsbury vt
    Posts
    997

    Default steam

    i have used a steamaway for 8 seasons now 3 of them with the r/o. for the price of a steamaway buy an r/o. the good thing about both is the oil savings. as to keep a steamaway clean , i would fill it with hot water every nite and leave to soak and drain and rinse before boiling next day.
    10,000 taps and adding on vac.4 liquid ring pumps, lapierre 5x14 thunderbolt, 1800 R/O

    http://s213.photobucket.com/albums/cc279/mapletime/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Marlborough, NH
    Posts
    163

    Default

    As I mentioned before I think that the Steam-Away system is certainly the way to go, particulary after some of the things that I have heard about R/O. Now I can't imagine that anyone who owns an R/O will admit to these claims being true, but according to my friend who I consider to be an "expert" maple person, the use of R/O results in flavor loss and it also changes the molecular structure of the syrup.
    While I don't have much knowledge on the molecular structure bit, the science behind the flavor claim actually makes perfect sense. Maple flavor comes from the cooking of the maple sugar in the sap. Grade B is more flavorful than Grade A because it is cooked longer due to a lower sugar content. The use of R/O can result in syrup that looks like dark amber but tastes like medium or light amber. Think of it this way, if 3/4 of the water is removed by way of an R/O (in an ideal situation,) it will only have to boil for 1/4 of the time it normally would. I personally don't believe that this is how great syrup is made. The person who told me this claimed to be able to taste the use of R/O in any syrup that was made with it.
    Steam-Aways and Piggybacks don't alter the boiling time, but are instead just a way to reclaim the lost heat from the flue pan. Given the fact that the heat is being generated in some way, whether it is wood or oil, I would jump at the opportunity to use as much of it as possible.
    And just to make things clear, I'm not a salesman for these things, I just happen to really like them.
    Scott
    UNH Environmental Research Group
    Dublin School "Maple Guy"
    Around 1300 taps for 2010
    3x12 Grimm and Steam Away
    2 1-ton trucks, Polaris Ranger, plenty of tractors
    http://www.dublinschool.org/home/con...student%20life
    www.collsfarmllc.com

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts