Just a few RO questions

[Swingpure]

I have finally bit the bullet and will be building a budget DYI RO.

It has an Aquatec 8800 pump, good for 200 GDP. I also, for the moment have two 150 GPD membranes. I may get a third membrane. This setup is what I could afford, I realize a more powerful pump and higher GPD membranes would be superior.

I will have two 55 gallon barrels one for the raw sap and concentrate and one for the permeate. The plan is to fill the first barrel with fresh sap around 3 pm, run the RO for 8 hours, returning the concentrate to the same barrel. At the end of the 8 hours, I would put the concentrate (25 gallons) into 5 gallon pails and store it in snowbanks near the evaporator. I would then refill the raw sap barrel and run the RO overnight and then take the concentrate (25 gallons) out again in pails to the evaporator. I would then boil the 50 gallons of concentrate.

First question, are there any fatal flaws in the plan.

Can I process 50 gallons of sap in 8 hours through 150 GDP membranes?

Having more membranes just increases the concentration of the sap? (4% concentration with one membrane, 6% with 2, 8% with 3?)

If I had enough sap for a third consecutive run, should I flush (clean) the membranes after the second run, or can I do it after the third?

Thanks

Gary

[bill m]

Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.

[Swingpure]

Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.

That is surprising to me, that sitting out in freezing temperatures, mostly overnight, for about 10 hours, in or on the snow, would not be cold enough to keep concentrate from spoiling.

Volume of concentrate is almost more important than being super concentrated. I would like at least 40 gallons of concentrate (if available) to boil. If I cannot store the first run, for 10 hours out in the cold, then I have made a big mistake.



For me the big reason for the RO is to reduce the firewood required. Time saved boiling is a bonus.

[carls47807]

Your 4% concentrate will be fine if kept cold for 10 hours. It will have virtually no temp rise from the RO, so if you process it cold and keep it cold you will be fine.

A 150gpd membrane will process about 3 gph from 2 to 4% sugar. Two would process around 6 gph. If you want another pass above 4% it will be very very slow.

[johnallin]

Originally Posted by bill m
Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.

Originally Posted by swingpure"
That is surprising to me, that sitting out in freezing temperatures, mostly overnight, for about 10 hours, in or on the snow, would not be cold enough to keep concentrate from spoiling.

if you don't like the answer, you shouldn't ask the question...

[Swingpure]

if you don't like the answer, you shouldn't ask the question...

I appreciate all advice and tips, I just found it surprising, it was not what I was expecting from what I had previously read.

[Swingpure]

Your 4% concentrate will be fine if kept cold for 10 hours. It will have virtually no temp rise from the RO, so if you process it cold and keep it cold you will be fine.

A 150gpd membrane will process about 3 gph from 2 to 4% sugar. Two would process around 6 gph. If you want another pass above 4% it will be very very slow.

Thank you.

The RO unit will be kept and operated in a heated garage, kept to about 38° F (3° C) and then the concentrate will head outside in expected below freezing temperatures. This 25 gallons of concentrate should all be boiling in an hour or so after the evaporator starts. The second batch of 25 gallons will start to be boiled about 4 hours after being processed.

All of the components should arrive from Amazon in the first couple weeks of January and I will build it then.

[LMP Maple]

Time is your enemy. From the moment that the sap leaves the tree the microbes are at work they want the sugar as much as you do. When you are working a full-time job and dealing with all that life will throw at you during the season time is the enemy. I have had syrup made by people that store the sap they collect all week and boil on the weekends, sounds great doesn't it? It has a 'different' flavor and color. We all do what we can to make this work and I applaud anyone that gets into this hobby or is lucky enough to make a living at this. There is a reason that most sugar makers I know have a glazed look in their eyes from mid Feb to April, they don't sleep, they process as fast as they can and they don't leave R/O ed sap for long.
The best advice I can give you is to do what makes sense for you in year one, you will see the quality of the sap change as it is stored. I bought an r/o that matches the boil rate of my rig. I will r/o for and hour then fire the rig up and boil as I r/o into my head tank my goal is to process the sap as fast as I can. I have the advantage of oil and can process small or large amounts nightly as needed.
You will make some nice stuff I have no doubt. I do agree that your storage times may present a problem particularly toward the end of the season. I learned a lot by going to open houses when we could do that and asking a lot of questions about their operations. We all love to talk sugaring. The best tasting syrup in my opinion always came from the guys that processed fast and did not let their sap sit for long. That being said I have yet to meet a sugarmaker who did not think that his/her stuff was the best stuff in their particular state. You will love the R/O and getting it now was a good idea. I would not stress out about it too much stick with your plan and see how it goes. One thing is for sure you will find many ways to improve for the next season. Write down what worked well and what did not and then improve.

[Swingpure]

Time is your enemy. From the moment that the sap leaves the tree the microbes are at work they want the sugar as much as you do. When you are working a full-time job and dealing with all that life will throw at you during the season time is the enemy. I have had syrup made by people that store the sap they collect all week and boil on the weekends, sounds great doesn't it? It has a 'different' flavor and color. We all do what we can to make this work and I applaud anyone that gets into this hobby or is lucky enough to make a living at this. There is a reason that most sugar makers I know have a glazed look in their eyes from mid Feb to April, they don't sleep, they process as fast as they can and they don't leave R/O ed sap for long.
The best advice I can give you is to do what makes sense for you in year one, you will see the quality of the sap change as it is stored. I bought an r/o that matches the boil rate of my rig. I will r/o for and hour then fire the rig up and boil as I r/o into my head tank my goal is to process the sap as fast as I can. I have the advantage of oil and can process small or large amounts nightly as needed.
You will make some nice stuff I have no doubt. I do agree that your storage times may present a problem particularly toward the end of the season. I learned a lot by going to open houses when we could do that and asking a lot of questions about their operations. We all love to talk sugaring. The best tasting syrup in my opinion always came from the guys that processed fast and did not let their sap sit for long. That being said I have yet to meet a sugarmaker who did not think that his/her stuff was the best stuff in their particular state. You will love the R/O and getting it now was a good idea. I would not stress out about it too much stick with your plan and see how it goes. One thing is for sure you will find many ways to improve for the next season. Write down what worked well and what did not and then improve.

Thanks for the tips and advice.

I will collect sap everyday. I guess the best of plans get changed, but my plan is to collect the sap at 3 pm, have the first 50 gallons in the RO by 3:30 pm, put the concentrate in pails at 11:30 pm, stored outside in freezing temperatures and in the evaporator at 8 am. So the first 50 gallons will be 17 hours old. The second 50 gallons will be raw sap for about 8 hours, in the RO for 8 hours and concentrate for 4 hours.

If I am getting overrun with sap, I will collect more than the 100 gallons and have a third run in the morning and have a second boil later in the afternoon.

Lots to learn, especially since I have never seen a drop of sap drop into a bucket, or run down a line, in real life. I will try and prepare the best I can and I will try and enjoy it. Goodness knows I cannot be more excited for the season to start.

[darkmachine]

This might sound naive but what about purchasing a used chest freezer, a large one holes about 180 gallons, install a vessel of some sort and pump your concentrate into that? Maybe even let it go through a whole house UV sterilizer unit. I know I have had good success extending the life of raw sap by filtering and then processing it through a UV lamp(mine is a Grimm branded lamp setup). This is the first year for me to have an RO and I plan on all my concentrate passing through the UV lamp on its way to my feed tank. I guess i'll let you know how it works out in April, lol.