Help with vacuum set-up

[ennismaple]

Peter,

The producers near us that have underground mainlines have been able to do it because they have a lot of sand and gravel and can get below frost line. We are unable to do it because of rock. If you have shallow limestone you're looking at ripping (or blasting rock) to get deep enough. If you have to install the mainline in the overburden where it will be subject to freezing temperatures and even if you maintain good slope on the buried mainlines there are situations where the ice will build up in the mains over time and eventually block your flow of sap.

In my mind, the options you have, in order of preference, are:
1. Install an electric releaser at or near your sugar camp and run above ground wet/dry system back to the woods. No tank required in the woods.
2. Install an electric releaser at the woods, which will require electricity and a heated enclosure. The electric releaser pumps back to the sugar camp above ground and also does not require a tank in the woods.
3. Have vacuum pump at the sugar camp and run a vacuum line (1.5"?) back to your woods to a mechanical releaser. The vacuum line could be underground if you have a good moisture trap in the woods. The mechanical releaser will require a tank in the woods. You can either gather the sap from the woods using a tractor/truck & wagon or you can pump back to the sugar camp using a generator and Gould pump.

Of course how you use the land will somewhat drive your decision making. In some sections of our woods we needed to keep trails and roads open so where we located our mainlines was dictated by that. We installed a sap ladder over the main road in one location to get 100 taps from one side to the other.

Enjoy planning your work - to me this is the fun part!

[islandviewpeter]

If I were to identify my main objective it would be to have sap delivered to my evaporator without having to physically go collect.

I am also planning to rebuild fence on upper edge of pasture. This may provide an option for above ground lines utilizing the fence as supports.

I don't want above ground lines crossing the field making something else to work around rest of the year. This option would likely require some temporary lines put in place for season and then removed.

[TapTapTap]

2. Install an electric releaser at the woods, which will require electricity and a heated enclosure. The electric releaser pumps back to the sugar camp above ground and also does not require a tank in the woods.

I don't totally agree with no tank in the woods for option #2. That works best only if the potential for freezing is eliminated on the pumpline. The electric releaser is check valved so once the pump shuts off, the sap in that line goes where gravity pulls it. Therefore, it would need to run on a continuous downward pitch right up to the discharge into the raw sap tank at the sugarhouse to work properly. If there are any sags in the pumpline then the sap can freeze. Therefore, the proper way to set up this option is typically with a small transfer tank and pump on float or conductivity probe switch. At that point you're talking about a bigger space, more power, and more things to check on daily.

Ken

[GeneralStark]

I don't totally agree with no tank in the woods for option #2. That works best only if the potential for freezing is eliminated on the pumpline.

Ken

He could bury the pipeline below frost line from the woods to the sugarhouse if possible... Or if set up aerial he could use black pipe and slope it well right to the sugarhouse. Don't use any connectors or fittings as that would eliminate restrictions. Could also run a second line in case the first freezes...

[TapTapTap]

He could bury the pipeline below frost line from the woods to the sugarhouse if possible... Or if set up aerial he could use black pipe and slope it well right to the sugarhouse. Don't use any connectors or fittings as that would eliminate restrictions. Could also run a second line in case the first freezes...

My point is that an underground line up to the raw sap tank needs to come up and into the raw sap tank. So the 8 or so feet of vertical riser pipe will remain full including the distance back underground to that same elevation.

[bill m]

The concept of having a releaser below grade in a well casing at the sugarhouse could work if a downward sustained slope can be achieved from the woods to the releaser. The cross section shown with the included map suggests that may not be the case and it is difficult to determine from the information provided what may be the actual situation. The OP mentions burying the lines through the pasture so maintaining a downhill slope to the releaser underground would be a challenge if the slope is not consistently downhill. And then there is the fact that the releaser would need to be below grade ... How deep do you really want to have to dig? And how are you going to pump the sap out of the well casing?

If the OP wants to provide more detailed info. then perhaps we can provide some more detailed "logic" but until then it's all just throwing ideas out there...

Running power 900' is certainly not prohibitive for a vac. pump and a releaser, especially if you are considering burying pipe at a consistent slope and may require several runs of large diameter pipe. Plenty of folks run power long distances as it can be cheaper than pipe...

Where do you get your information that power cable is cheaper than pipe? To run power 900 feet you will be looking at 3 to 4 dollars a foot for direct burial wire. 2 or even 3 inch pipe will be less than $2.00 a foot

[GeneralStark]

Where do you get your information that power cable is cheaper than pipe? To run power 900 feet you will be looking at 3 to 4 dollars a foot for direct burial wire. 2 or even 3 inch pipe will be less than $2.00 a foot

Where are you getting your prices for wire? Here is direct burial aluminum 1/0 for $1.25/ft https://www.nassaunationalcable.com/...ts/1-0-triplex

2-2-2 would probably even be adequate for a vac pump and submersible on VFDs (240V @ 13 amps) That's $1.00/ft. https://www.nassaunationalcable.com/...ts/2-r-triplex

One run of that for 900' and one run of 1" for a pump line would be less than two runs of pipe sized appropriately for a wet and dry line 900'.

[TapTapTap]

I'm no electrician and I tend to be conservative on sizing things. But I would be adding at least a few extra amps (outlet, lighting, video cameras, heating, etc), sizing the wire to be at only 80% max capacity, and making sure that the voltage drop is minimal since you're talking about expensive equipment. The outcome would likely be in the $3 per foot, or more. I would think that a commercial licensed electrician would apply similar logic to sizing the wire. Would it work with the lighter grade wire? Maybe. But is it worth the risk - One burnt up motor and disrupted production might convince you otherwise.

[bill m]

For 240 volts triplex wire can not be used, according to code. It must be quadruplex.

[GeneralStark]

Once again, just throwing out ideas here... Re reading my last post I can see where there may be some confusion so let me start over.

It would be perfectly adequate to run 3 wire 2-2-2 aluminum conductor to power an electric releaser. That's 240 @10 amps with 3% voltage drop or less at over 1200 ft. 240V @13 amps would decrease the distance to 943 ft. That conductor could cost $1.00/ft. from the source I provided.

If you want to power a vac. pump + releaser (on vfds), lights, and perhaps a small heater then yes 4 wire would be ideal to then run a multi-breaker panel at this theoretical pumphouse. Let's say 240V @30 amps. 3/0 4-wire which gets to 886 ft. and that's $2.70/ft. At 240V @ 20 amps (ditch the electric heater) we're down to $2.19/ft for 2/0 4-wire and that is at 1106 ft. At 240 V @15 amps 1/0 4-wire will get 1152 ft. and costs $1.72/ft.

It is possible and probably even code compliant (don't know about Canada) to do a 3-wire run to the pump house for only 240V devices (Vac Pump + Releaser on VFDs). So then back to 3-wire 1/0 240V @15 amps at $1.25/ft. for up to 1152 ft.

Am I saying that the OP should go any of these route? No...once again he came looking for ideas and I'm just putting them out there. Plenty of people are safely running pump stations a variety of ways.

Ken, what would you consider appropriate pipe for burial in this application? Anyone have any pricing for aerial or burial pipe?