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Thread: Storing ro membrane in preservative

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
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    This is what my directions say from Carl.

    Instructions for End of Season Storage
    For end of season storage, flush according to Instructions for Cleaning” section 5, step 2.After you have completed the flush, prepare 1 gallon of warm water (~80F), and dissolve our membrane preservative in it (as per the instructions on the bottle)
    Recirculate the gallon of solution through the system for 30 minutes.
    After 30 minutes, turn the unit off and let it sit for a couple of hours to a day.
    After that, pull the intake suction hose and allow the unit to run dry.
    Reinsert the intake suction hose into clean water and rinse the system for 2 minutes (approximately 2 gallons).
    Remove the prefilter from the filter housing. If storing a bucket system, leave the lid off and make sure the unit is
    completely dry (leaving the membranes full of water).
    Do not let the pump sit in a humid environment during storage.

  2. #12
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    Mar 2015
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    Wind Lake, WI
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    I've followed Carl's directions and the membranes kept just fine so I followed them again this season 2 gallons of permeate after the preservative isn't going to flush every bit of it out either.
    42.82N
    2015 - Small operation. 25 buckets. One excited 5 year old and one 35 year old that feels 5 again.
    2016 - One year older. New Homemade 2x4 Arch, Smoky Lake Pan and looking at 52 maples, 17 box elders and 2 walnut trees.
    2017 - Shurflo 4008 hooked to 42 stingy silver maples and a few Norways. A couple buckets on sugars and Norways. 10 box elders.
    2018 - ...a few more taps.
    2019 - ...more taps on 3/16 gravity. This spiral is heading downward in a hurry.
    2020 - 4x400 RO - RB20 (uh-oh!)

  3. #13
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    Dec 2015
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    Weston, CT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord View Post
    Seems like most are storing their membranes in preservative. Why would my directions say to store it at years end in water? Now I'm questioning it?
    I will also store my membranes in preservative, Metabisulfite Sodium specifically.

    However it does not take a lot of it to kill a person. Consuming about half an ounce will kill a person, 99 out of 100 times apparently.

    It is toxic and somehow we loose track of of that.

    I know of a large commercial producer in Vermont who just uses water to store there membranes and say they never have problems. Even though they sell Metabisulfite Sodium.

    Now I am questioning why I am using Metabisulfite Sodium.
    If you think it's easy to make good money in maple syrup .... then your obviously good at stealing somebody's Maple Syrup.

    Favorite Tree: Sugar Maple
    Most Hated Animal: Sap Sucker
    Most Loved Animal: Devon Rex Cat
    Favorite Kingpin: Bruce Bascom
    40 Sugar Maple Taps ... 23 in CT and 17 in NY .... 29 on gravity tubing and 11 on 5G buckets ... 2019 Totals 508 gallons of sap, 7 boils, 11.4 gallons of syrup.
    1 Girlfriend that gives away all my syrup to her friends.

  4. #14
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    Mar 2021
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    Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar Bear View Post
    This seems like a good idea. But one of the concerns I have is how PVC stands up to metabisulfite sodium over time.

    I have been told by people that know something about it that it probably suffers some decomposition over time when it is exposed to MS, whether it is DWV or PW-G rated.

    With that in mind I would rather decompose some pvc I glued together rather then my pvc housings which I will then be running my sap through.

    But then again perhaps your clever idea will have no issues, at least none detectable anyway.

    I.E. the metabisulfite sodium preserves the mebranes we can safely assume, but can we also safely assume it preserves PVC?
    I've been making beer and wine for 20 years and used metabisulfite as a preservative and no rinse sanitizer for many of those years (before StarSan came along). I've kept the solution in plastic jugs for years without issue (unlike StarSan which is acidic and will eventually break down plastics). I'd have to do more research though to be sure. But I doubt it has any real effect on PVC over 1 year.

  5. #15
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    Dec 2015
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    Weston, CT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun4stuff View Post
    I've been making beer and wine for 20 years and used metabisulfite as a preservative and no rinse sanitizer for many of those years (before StarSan came along). I've kept the solution in plastic jugs for years without issue (unlike StarSan which is acidic and will eventually break down plastics). I'd have to do more research though to be sure. But I doubt it has any real effect on PVC over 1 year.

    Yes I would doubt it to.

    But my point is why let your RO canisters sit in it all season with the membranes and the metabisulfite solution. When you can just let the membranes sit in a alternatively ( and easily ) made PVC canister with the metabisulfite solution.

    I would let as few chemicals as possible sit in my RO system components as possible over the period of 1 year. Considering we will be running hundreds of gallons of concentrate ( waste water ) over that surface ( The PVC canisters allow for a lot of waste water contact of the PVC surface ) Not so much of the permeate flow.

    Its just sending out more invitations to the unknown and asking for the unexpected.

    A lot of sugar makers will not even put there membranes in metabisulfite solution.

    They may well know something we don't, so frankly I don't blame them.
    If you think it's easy to make good money in maple syrup .... then your obviously good at stealing somebody's Maple Syrup.

    Favorite Tree: Sugar Maple
    Most Hated Animal: Sap Sucker
    Most Loved Animal: Devon Rex Cat
    Favorite Kingpin: Bruce Bascom
    40 Sugar Maple Taps ... 23 in CT and 17 in NY .... 29 on gravity tubing and 11 on 5G buckets ... 2019 Totals 508 gallons of sap, 7 boils, 11.4 gallons of syrup.
    1 Girlfriend that gives away all my syrup to her friends.

  6. #16
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    Mar 2021
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    Michigan
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    Anything in the right concentration or amount can be lethal, including water. As far as where sodium metabisulfite goes, it’s relatively safe, having been used in the food industry as a no-rinse preservative for years
    Last edited by Fun4stuff; 04-04-2021 at 02:06 PM.

  7. #17
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    Dec 2015
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    Weston, CT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun4stuff View Post
    Anything in the right concentration or amount can be lethal, including water. As far as where sodium metabisulfite goes, it’s relatively safe, having been used in the food industry as a no-rinse preservative for years
    Yes, but the point I am making here is that the best and safest thing to store your RO components in over the off season is good old fashion air. Unless necessity dictates something else as it does for the membranes.

    With that said I will store my ,membranes in a metabisulfite sodium solution over the next 10 months.

    I have been told by a LARGE commercial producer in Vermont that they store there membranes in the refrigerator, with water in a tightly sealed plastic bag. Even though they sell metabisulfite sodium.

    They say it works for them and it is one less chemical that has a very high toxicity level completely out of there equation for them.

    While I believe the term "Organic" is a case for the nut jobs, I like to keep reality within the equation ... "Metabisulfite Sodium is toxic when ingested in small quantities and also is known to form a corrosive acid when mixed with water" ... so why put it in contact, for 10 months, with RO components that it does not have to be in contact with? PVC housings... check valves ... polyethylene tubing ... whatever?

    I have noticed that according to Gord and Carls directions he does not even store the membranes in the metabisulfite sodium over the summer. Just rinses them with it and stores with water.

    I'll bet Carl knows something about this that I don't. Probably a few others as well.

    Da Bear
    Last edited by Sugar Bear; 04-04-2021 at 05:19 PM.
    If you think it's easy to make good money in maple syrup .... then your obviously good at stealing somebody's Maple Syrup.

    Favorite Tree: Sugar Maple
    Most Hated Animal: Sap Sucker
    Most Loved Animal: Devon Rex Cat
    Favorite Kingpin: Bruce Bascom
    40 Sugar Maple Taps ... 23 in CT and 17 in NY .... 29 on gravity tubing and 11 on 5G buckets ... 2019 Totals 508 gallons of sap, 7 boils, 11.4 gallons of syrup.
    1 Girlfriend that gives away all my syrup to her friends.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    UVM Proctor Maple Research Center, Underhill Ctr, VT
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    6,391

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar Bear View Post
    But one of the concerns I have is how PVC stands up to metabisulfite sodium over time.
    I completely agree that it is great to use as little toxic material as possible or a less toxic substitute if there is a good alternative.

    Most membrane makers and maple equipment (RO) manufacturers recommend the use of SMBS as a preservative. Most commercial maple producers I've talked with store their membranes in PVC cannisters with SMBS. Our membranes are sent in our membranes each year for cleaning and that is how they come back.

    The chemical resistance of PVC to SMBS is generally considered to be excellent/high.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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