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Thread: Best practice for sap yield with buckets over several seasons

  1. #1
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    Default Best practice for sap yield with buckets over several seasons

    Throwing out a question here on the best practice for sap yield utilizing 5/16 drops into 5 gallon buckets over several seasons. Is it best after year one to replace spouts with CV spouts? I've read about the CV spouts for vacuum operations but not on buckets. I have also read if your drop line in the bucket goes into the sap, then there is the chance for back flow. This is what I have done in the past. Year one (2018)-new spouts and drops (cleaned and sanitized at end of season). Year two (2021)-utilized spouts and drops from year one (cleaned and sanitized them before tapping) plus added a few new spouts and drops. I will clean and sanitize these at the end of the season. The first year I had 29 taps. The second (this year) I had 50. We are looking at going to 100 next year (still with buckets). I should add that we will be reusing the drops for next season and I like to leave the drops at 3-4 foot lengths so I have some flexibility when tapping.
    Last edited by ebliese; 03-20-2021 at 06:27 PM.
    Daniel & Eleanor Bliese
    Heritage Woods, LLC
    SW Michigan

    Smoky Lake 2x4 raised flue on Corsair arch
    The RO Bucket 80gph Single Post
    100 taps on buckets

  2. #2
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    Unless the tubing was really funky I never replaced it, just rinsed and sanitized in the sink. As for the spouts, I usually used the clear spouts and replaced them each year. they weren't worth the hassle of trying to clean for re-use.
    2004 - 2012 2x3 flat pan 25 to 60 taps
    2012 2x3 new divided pan w/draw off 55 taps
    2018 - didn't boil surgery - bought new evaporator
    2019 new SML 2x4 raised flue high output evap. 65 taps
    made 17 gal. syrup
    2020 - only put out 53 taps - made 16.25 ga.l syrup
    2021 - Didn't work out
    2022 - 25 taps on bags / 8 taps on 3/16's line - late start

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    Preferably, spouts and droplines should be sanitized with a mild bleach solution after every season, then rinsed and dried for storage. According to the research done at Cornell (Steve Childs), CV spouts can help, but the economics are not as favorable as with vacuum systems due to the lower yields on gravity. CV can be economic in gravity systems, but the calculation is a lot closer to par.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Preferably, spouts and droplines should be sanitized with a mild bleach solution after every season, then rinsed and dried for storage. According to the research done at Cornell (Steve Childs), CV spouts can help, but the economics are not as favorable as with vacuum systems due to the lower yields on gravity. CV can be economic in gravity systems, but the calculation is a lot closer to par.
    With drops going into buckets, is it still preferable to replace taps and drops opposed to trying to sanitize? I'm only doing a couple 100 buckets but still want optimal flow.
    1960 - 1970s 70 taps on galvanized buckets with Dad and Grandpa.
    1970s - 1985 Acted crazy!
    1986 - 2005 20-30 buckets.
    2006- 2017 70 buckets and bags
    2017-2019 100 bags and buckets
    2020 Finally retired!!! 75 buckets, 50-75 on tubing. RO Bucket, New 12 X 16 Shack and a 42X42 flat pan.
    2021-Adding another 125 taps along with a second RO bucket.
    2022- Shooting for 350 taps, with 100 on lines.
    Lots of Family and Friends and dogs named Skyy and Nessy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper2 View Post
    With drops going into buckets, is it still preferable to replace taps and drops opposed to trying to sanitize? I'm only doing a couple 100 buckets but still want optimal flow.
    Bring the drops/spouts in. Sanitize with chlorine solution (400ppm, no additives...brighteners, scents) for 5-10 minutes minimum. Rinse well. That'll get you pretty close to new in terms of sanitation.

    The economics of replacing on a 3-yr rotation were developed for vacuum. Since sap yields are so much lower with gravity, it is not worth it economically to replace as often. Sanitizing with chlorine is easy if you're able to bring the drops in.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Bring the drops/spouts in. Sanitize with chlorine solution (400ppm, no additives...brighteners, scents) for 5-10 minutes minimum. Rinse well. That'll get you pretty close to new in terms of sanitation.

    The economics of replacing on a 3-yr rotation were developed for vacuum. Since sap yields are so much lower with gravity, it is not worth it economically to replace as often. Sanitizing with chlorine is easy if you're able to bring the drops in.
    Thanks Tim,
    That's what I will do then with my drops and taps for buckets. But how about my 5/16 gravity lines, no vacuum. Replace taps yearly? Drops biannual? Thanks.
    1960 - 1970s 70 taps on galvanized buckets with Dad and Grandpa.
    1970s - 1985 Acted crazy!
    1986 - 2005 20-30 buckets.
    2006- 2017 70 buckets and bags
    2017-2019 100 bags and buckets
    2020 Finally retired!!! 75 buckets, 50-75 on tubing. RO Bucket, New 12 X 16 Shack and a 42X42 flat pan.
    2021-Adding another 125 taps along with a second RO bucket.
    2022- Shooting for 350 taps, with 100 on lines.
    Lots of Family and Friends and dogs named Skyy and Nessy!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    Bring the drops/spouts in. Sanitize with chlorine solution (400ppm, no additives...brighteners, scents) for 5-10 minutes minimum. Rinse well. That'll get you pretty close to new in terms of sanitation.

    The economics of replacing on a 3-yr rotation were developed for vacuum. Since sap yields are so much lower with gravity, it is not worth it economically to replace as often. Sanitizing with chlorine is easy if you're able to bring the drops in.
    Hmm, interesting. Not being a chemist, does a calcium hypochlorite solution have to be at 400ppm? I noticed the North American Maple Syrup Producer's Manual talks about a sodium hypochlorite solution of 500 to 600ppm for sanitation. Last year we opted to use a calcium hypochlorite of 500ppm and were planning on using the same but we can drop it to 400ppm if that is better.
    Daniel & Eleanor Bliese
    Heritage Woods, LLC
    SW Michigan

    Smoky Lake 2x4 raised flue on Corsair arch
    The RO Bucket 80gph Single Post
    100 taps on buckets

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebliese View Post
    Hmm, interesting. Not being a chemist, does a calcium hypochlorite solution have to be at 400ppm?
    Again, read the label for the recommended concentration for the particular sanitizer you are using. 400-500-600 is in the ballpark. If your lines have a lot of liquid in them, go to the higher range. If you pull taps with vacuum on (so no liquid left in them), OK to use the lower range.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper2 View Post
    ...But how about my 5/16 gravity lines, no vacuum. Replace taps yearly? Drops biannual? Thanks.
    https://mapleresearch.org/pub/1019sanitation-2/

    Your choice. Depends upon several things: your expected yield, vacuum or gravity, how much your time is worth, etc. Best approach for maximum yield would be to replace your entire system each year, but you'd go broke (poor net economic return) doing it.

    Top tier (no particular order, all yield close to the same result) are:
    Chlorine (sodium or calcium) bleach with rinsing or let first sap run on the ground.
    New spouts each yr, drops replaced every 3 yrs.
    CV spouts or adapters
    These produce the highest yields and highest net profits (compared to doing nothing).


    Mid-tier:

    IPA (if you're in Canada, illegal in U.S.).
    Zap-Bac spouts (replaced every 3 yrs)
    Mid-level yields and mid-level net profits.

    Low tier:
    New spouts each year
    Other sanitizers
    Low net yields and low net profits.

    Little or no sanitizing effect:
    Dry clean (sucking sap out under vacuum when pulling spouts), letting spouts dangle
    Air/water clean
    Sour sap (vinegar)
    Sanitizers pulled in under vacuum (inadequate contact time).
    No cleaning
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 02-03-2022 at 09:18 AM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper2 View Post
    Thanks Tim,
    That's what I will do then with my drops and taps for buckets. But how about my 5/16 gravity lines, no vacuum. Replace taps yearly? Drops biannual? Thanks.
    We have some lines with gravity and some on Shurflo vac. Eventually, we will have regular vacuum on some of the lines. We're doing the same rotation whether gravity or vacuum. We have 3 small bushes and just completed totally redoing our last one this year. New mainline, laterals, saddles....everything to set them up the way they should be. Our rotation is:

    Year 1:
    New drops/CDL smart flow taps

    Year 2:
    New Zap Bac spouts/replace any damaged drops

    Year 3:
    2nd year of Zap Bac spouts/replace any damaged drops

    Year 4:
    Start over..........New drop/CDL smartflow taps. At this point, we will take a close look at the laterals and replace anything questionable or anything that has been taped.

    In regards to the Zap Bacs, I am no expert on them but I have spoken with mountainvan a few times, who I believe is the most experienced one on here with them. He is a large producer with around 5400 taps on vacuum. He said yield wise, years 1 and 2 he felt there was no noticeable yield differences. Year 3 he did feel that it dropped off some. It is not a scientific study, lots of variables could affect that analysis but based on that we use the Zap bacs for 2 years and I believe he does now too. It doesn't really save any money vs. a new spout every year, they cost $0.50 vs. $0.27 but it does save time of not having to replace taps in the 3rd year. Not really a big savings for us but for a large operation like his, it could be very beneficial.
    Last edited by mainebackswoodssyrup; 02-03-2022 at 09:35 AM.
    305 taps on 2 Shurflo's, 31 taps on 3/16" and 229 taps on gravity. 565 in all
    Mountain Maple S3 controller for 145 of the vacuum taps
    2x6 Darveau Mystique Oil Fired Evaporator w/ Smoky Lake Simplicity Auto Draw
    Wesfab 7” filter press

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