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Thread: Refrigerated bulk tanks- value

  1. #21
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    Do refrigerated tanks do fine outdoors in the weather? I realize they are usually in a milk house. But would there be a problem using them without any shelter?
    Tim Whitens
    Willow Creek Farm
    Fulton, NY

    3000 on vacuum, 3hp 3ph Busch pump, 2567 Gast
    30X8 Leader oil-fired evap. w/ steamaway
    Airablo 1000 RO
    6 Alpacas

  2. #22
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    Jan 2017
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    Williston, VT
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    I assume there aren't any type of tank jackets that provide sufficient cooling capacity. It would make cooling concentrate a lot more practical since you could still use the head tank, with the jacket, which would eliminate the bulk tank and required room. There would seem to be value in a jacket since all the tank capacities and dimensions could be optimized to an individual's situation. I have learned the building around an odd shaped tank which you buy at a great price is not the way to save costs.
    Ken & Sherry
    Williston, VT

    2017 - 13 gallons on 65 taps (12 buckets, rest 3/16), 2x4 flat bottom, modified cargo box sugarhouse
    2018 - 90 gallons on 418 taps (gravity lines), Leader 30"x10' Vortex Arch & Max Raised Flue with Rev Syrup Pan, New Sugarhouse
    2019 - Burned through alot more money: heated kitchen, 2x2,000 and 375 gal ss sap tanks, CDL1200 RO, Bauch Vac Pump, More taps, etc., etc., etc.
    https://www.facebook.com/pumpkinhillmaple/

  3. #23
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    Walpole, NH
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    The compressor itself needs shelter from the rain and snow but also needs good airflow around it. The tank itself can be outside but it will freeze inside if you get prolonged really cold weather. Other than the agitator motor, there is nothing on them that needs weather protection.
    Sugaring for 45+ years
    New Sugarhouse 14'x32'
    New to Me Algier 2'x8' wood fired evaporator
    225 Sugar Maples Currently,(105 on 3/16" and 110 on Shurflo 4008 vacuum, 10 gravity), (16,000 before being disabled)
    1947 Farmall H and Wagon with gathering tank
    2012 Kubota with forks to move wood around

  4. #24
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    Ken- I have seen water-holding tanks that had the exterior covered with dense, black foam insulation. I'm sure you could insulate a tank somehow with all the different types of insulation out there.

    Tim- Bap is right. They can be outside but unit needs to be out of the weather. My working bulk tank is inside the sugar house and all my raw sap storage-only bulk tanks are outside without any cover. They all have their original lids and covers and I removed the agitator motors and fabricated small covers for those openings. And I put some sealant around where the agitator power cord goes into the tank, just to try and keep any moisture out if I could.
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  5. #25
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    Jan 2017
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    Williston, VT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket Head View Post
    Ken- I have seen water-holding tanks that had the exterior covered with dense, black foam insulation. I'm sure you could insulate a tank somehow with all the different types of insulation out there.
    I agree that there are many obvious ways to insulate a tank which could help . But insulation alone is not a solution since it might only insulate warmed sap from the RO process from cooling.

    What I'm talking about a jacket with a coil attached to a refrigeration system. Then you'll need some type of insulating jacket over the cooling coils.
    Ken & Sherry
    Williston, VT

    2017 - 13 gallons on 65 taps (12 buckets, rest 3/16), 2x4 flat bottom, modified cargo box sugarhouse
    2018 - 90 gallons on 418 taps (gravity lines), Leader 30"x10' Vortex Arch & Max Raised Flue with Rev Syrup Pan, New Sugarhouse
    2019 - Burned through alot more money: heated kitchen, 2x2,000 and 375 gal ss sap tanks, CDL1200 RO, Bauch Vac Pump, More taps, etc., etc., etc.
    https://www.facebook.com/pumpkinhillmaple/

  6. #26
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    New Hartford, N.Y.
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    Alright, I understand what you meant now. The cooling coil would have to be in contact with the tank skin itself. A bulk tank's "cooler" is attached to the bottom third or so of the tank. It cools by conduction/contact. The other way would be to submerge the cooling coil in the sap. There is a chiller tank at work that cools the water that way. And then there are plate coolers too but I have no experience with those.
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  7. #27
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    May 2010
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    upstate N.Y.
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    I just picked up a Sunset 625 gallon 100% complete working unit for $1500. I have seen them for less but this will fit and replace my current head tank, an 800 gallon open top tank. I will also have a few hundred more getting it installed. I think this will really help my operation, quick math says it will hold ~100 gallons of syrup at 15% concentrated sap. Even a few less startup and shutdowns a season will really help efficiency.

    I only plan on holding concentrate a few days at most if needed due to work. How long are people able to hold concentrate at 8-15% at 30-34F?
    2.5X10 HE
    600 RO
    Vac

  8. #28
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    May 2006
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    New Hartford, N.Y.
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    That's a great deal! Nice find. You will wonder how you got by without one next season. They are an extremely useful sugaring tool.
    The first year mine was up and running, I held 12% concentrate for six days, as an experiment. That concentrate made great looking and great tasting amber syrup. I figured the syrup would be okay but seeing was believing. Good luck with the tank!

    Steve
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Granville, PA
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    293

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    How long are people able to hold concentrate at 8-15% at 30-34F?
    Dr. Tim attached a chart on the first page of this thread that shows recommend temperature to hold sap at various concentrate levels. Looking at that chart, I don't believe you would want to store that sugar content sap for very long at that high of a temperature. You should be less than 30 degrees for 8%.
    Matt,
    Minehart Gap Maple

  10. #30
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    May 2009
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    UVM Proctor Maple Research Center, Underhill Ctr, VT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    How long are people able to hold concentrate at 8-15% at 30-34F?
    Unfortunately that is not a simple calculation. Deterioration in storage is a function of sugar content, time and temperature (and starting level of contamination of the sap/concentrate and equipment).

    - Higher sugar content means faster deterioration.
    - Longer time period means more deterioration.
    - Higher temperatures lead to faster deterioration.

    In general, you can think of sap (or concentrate) as milk or some other perishable that you keep in the fridge(which is typically about 40 deg F). It'll almost certainly last several days (assuming it wasn't highly contaminated to begin with), but once you get beyond a week or so, you're taking your chances. If it is colder, it'll take longer to spoil.

    microbe growth rate by temp.JPG

    This chart is a good general depiction of the growth rates of different classes of microbes at various temperatures (note that the scale is in deg C, not deg F). Very few things can survive well at really low temperatures. Those that can handle it can't grow very quickly. The red arrow is the temperature at which we keep our bulk tank. Not much happening at those temperatures.

    There is a segment of a presentation I did a few years back on sap/concentrate spoilage as affected by time and temperature at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnan...v&index=9&t=0s That particular portion starts at about 38 min in the video.

    We've kept 35 Brix concentrate at 24 deg F for a couple of weeks with no deterioration in quality. Not a lot of microbes will grow at that temperatures.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 07-14-2020 at 08:12 AM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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