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Thread: Flow Rates on Mainline

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Hopkinton, MA
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    Default Flow Rates on Mainline

    I'm thinking of upgrading the mainline I use to offload sap from the IBC on my truck to my collection tank at the SH. Right now, I have a 60ish-foot 1" black water pipe on a mainline wire that drains the tank by gravity dropping maybe 5 feet as it goes downhill from valve to top of tank.

    I wish I had timed how long it takes to drain a typical load of sap. I'm not always in a hurry. There's plenty of stuff to do while it drains. Sometimes, though I do want to unload faster to go collect again. I may add a second tank to the truck down the road.

    I'm thinking of bumping it up to 1.5" blue mainline. Any idea on the flow rates of 1" vs. 1.5"? Is 2" insanely fast? I do take the line down every year, so ease of unrolling and rolling is a factor.
    Woodville Maples
    www.woodvillemaples.com
    www.facebook.com/woodvillemaples
    Around 300 taps on tubing, 25+ on buckets if I put them out
    Mix of natural and mechanical vac, S3 Controller from Mountain Maple
    2x6 W.F. Mason with Phaneuf pans
    Deer Run 250 RO
    Ford F350
    6+ hives of bees (if they make it through the winters)
    Keeping the day job until I can start living the dream.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Wind Lake, WI
    Posts
    520

    Default

    Just using cross-section area (which probably isn't the whole picture). 1" line is .79 sq-in, 1.5" is 1.77 sq-in. So, 2.24x the area. At same pressure it should flow that amount more. 2" would be 3.97x the area.
    42.82N
    2015 - Small operation. 25 buckets. One excited 5 year old and one 35 year old that feels 5 again.
    2016 - One year older. New Homemade 2x4 Arch, Smoky Lake Pan and looking at 52 maples, 17 box elders and 2 walnut trees.
    2017 - Shurflo 4008 hooked to 42 stingy silver maples and a few Norways. A couple buckets on sugars and Norways. 10 box elders.
    2018 - ...a few more taps.
    2019 - ...more taps on 3/16 gravity. This spiral is heading downward in a hurry.
    2020 - 4x400 RO - RB20 (uh-oh!)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    UVM Proctor Maple Research Center, Underhill Ctr, VT
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by littleTapper View Post
    Just using cross-section area (which probably isn't the whole picture). 1" line is .79 sq-in, 1.5" is 1.77 sq-in. So, 2.24x the area. At same pressure it should flow that amount more. 2" would be 3.97x the area.
    That is correct, assuming you don't have some restriction (fitting, valve, etc) somewhere in the line that necks it down to a common size, in which case you won't see any real difference due to pipe size.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    New Hartford, N.Y.
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    2,093

    Default

    I can not speak on gravity from experience but I can speak on the difference when pumping through 1" and 2" hose. For years, I both collected and then unloaded with the same, 1" inlet/outlet gas engine pump. It took well over twenty minutes to pump off the 450 gal. tank. Last year I bought a 2" pump for unloading. (Still like the smaller pump for going barrel to barrel while collecting. Easier to move around.) I can now unload the tank in minutes! I've never timed it but it's not more than five. Just an incredible difference. Gravity will be a little slower but you should see a noticeable decrease in unloading time with bigger hose.

    Steve
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    northfield,mass
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    Maybe a little redneck but what about 6/7 ten ft pieces of pvc pipe and appropriate amount of fernco couplings . Start in the sugarhouse and run it to dump site , bag tie it to the wire like mainline. Rather undo a fernco than try and roll up 1 1/2 mainline .
    4 by 12 cdl
    Cdl 3 post ro , 4th post waiting to get added
    5 hp sihi vaccum pump, 3/4 hp airblo vaccum pump, gv60 atlas copco vaccum pump www.roundmountainsugarhouse.com.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
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    11,547

    Default

    I also never timed it, but I used to unload 2 and sometimes 3 full IBC totes by gravity using 1.5" PVC hose. It likely took about 5 minutes x 2 or 3 depending on if I was emptying 2 or 3 IBCs and the drop in elevation was only about 2'. Just remember to open the cap on the IBC or you will collapse the tote.
    On mine when I did that all 3 were mounted on a gooseneck trailer and they were plumbed together so they had a common discharge. I just removed the caps, tested the sap sugar, recorded the amount of sap, then I opened the valves on each, all emptied equally as they progressed. My 1.5" hose was 30' to the closest tank and 45' if I had to go to the second tank or the third.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Stockbridge,Ma
    Posts
    285

    Default

    Steam Maker has a great suggestion. Rolling up 1 1/2 inch tubing sucks and being only 60 ft. it could be harder. You can get pvc in 20 ft. lengths and the per foot cost should be a little cheaper.
    First introduced to making maple syrup in 1969
    Making syrup every year since 1979
    3 x 10 oil fired
    Revolution syrup and max flue pan
    Almost 1300 taps total with 900 on high vacuum
    Bought first Marcland drawoff in 1997, still going strong.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
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    11,547

    Default

    At one lease I pumped to empty the 1000 gal tan, which was about 5' below the elevation of the IBC tanks on the gooseneck on the road. For that one, I used 1.5" PVC pipe, connected together using Fernco type connectors. It was 40' from the tank to the IBC's I used 30' of the PVC pipe, as described and 2 lengths of flexible PVC pipe, 1 from the described PVC to the WX15 pump, and another from the pump to the tanks plumbed together on the trailer. Each IBC had it's own valve, I'd fill one at a time, as it got full I opened the next valve and closed the full tank's valve. However I don't recall what the actual pump run time was, but I filled 2 IBC's arrival to departure, set-up and clean up included in just about 25-30 minutes.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hopkinton, MA
    Posts
    1,778

    Default

    Wow. That's all awesome experience to share. I hadn't considered rigid pipe. I would have thought it was too much hassle with the Fernco's to boot. I'll think about that. I do like those numbers for 1.5" pipe/hose. If I'm honest with myself, there will be a second tank on my truck in a year or two.
    Woodville Maples
    www.woodvillemaples.com
    www.facebook.com/woodvillemaples
    Around 300 taps on tubing, 25+ on buckets if I put them out
    Mix of natural and mechanical vac, S3 Controller from Mountain Maple
    2x6 W.F. Mason with Phaneuf pans
    Deer Run 250 RO
    Ford F350
    6+ hives of bees (if they make it through the winters)
    Keeping the day job until I can start living the dream.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    Those fernco coupled pipe stayed there year to year. Once assembled they didn't get unhooked. I had cam lock caps or plugs on each end to keep dirt and critters out.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

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