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Thread: Ro sizing

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Vermont
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    204

    Default Ro sizing

    I'm looking at putting a ro in my pump house to recirculate in order to accomplish two things:
    1. Not have to upgrade my 2800 gallon sap tank (Space is an issue)
    2. My poor old dump truck is tired after hauling 62000 gallons of sap and I want to truck less.
    Once completed this woods will have 5000-6000 taps.
    My question is what size RO should I buy and what are the benefits of that capacity? Thank in advance.
    2016- 50 buckets. Made 4 gallons
    2017- 100 buckets, 50 taps on 3/4 mainline and 3/16th tubing + shurflo vacuum. Made 30 gallons.
    2018- 1000 taps on 3/16 + vacuum, 60 buckets - made 378 gallons of syrup.
    2019- 1713 taps on 3/16 + vacuum, NO buckets. Made 500 gallons.
    2020- 2793 taps made 1118 gallons.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    South Colton, NY
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    602

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    Figure 500 gallons per hour for each 8" membrane to remove roughly 75 percent of the water. A normal run then could be 12 hours of processing time for one, 6 for two.
    3,100 taps
    60 cfm flood
    HC2
    5 by 14 oil

    Brian

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    10,458

    Default

    One aspect to keep in mind is that concentrate spoils faster. You may want refrigeration to protect the concentrate quality. You would not want to concentrate that much into a single batch and hold it for very long at all. Once concentrated it either needs to be cooled or boiled soon after or you lose sugar to concentrated microbes.
    Proctor concentrates then cools to just short of slush forming and holds it for 2 -3 days. Without refrigeration an hour or 2 might be about the max. if the outside temp is not close to freezing and the concentrate can get cooled that way.
    Dave Klish about 1320 taps in '15, downsized after I lost my help, about 450-500 planned for 2021 (and after?)
    2012 Mahindra 36 HP 4x4/ loader/cab/heat/AC:-)
    3x8 raised flue evaporator
    250 GPH converted to electric, RO by Ray Gingerich
    6.32 KW solar system, 1.48KW is battery backed up, all net metered
    http://s1041.photobucket.com/albums/...anssugarhouse/
    website: www.cnymaple.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Center, Underhill Ctr, VT
    Posts
    5,012

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    Along with what others have said, note that recirculating will warm the sap/concentrate. The more you recirculate, the warmer it'll get. That will not improve sap quality.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Vermont
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    Default

    Thanks Dave and Brian. I have an insulated distillery tank which I think will help. But yes that was part of my plan. Right now I never get my tanks cleaned properly because I am overwhelming my buyers tank and ro. I'm hoping to bring 2 loads a day instead of 5 or 6. Brian you have pump stations correct? Do you concentrate before you truck?
    2016- 50 buckets. Made 4 gallons
    2017- 100 buckets, 50 taps on 3/4 mainline and 3/16th tubing + shurflo vacuum. Made 30 gallons.
    2018- 1000 taps on 3/16 + vacuum, 60 buckets - made 378 gallons of syrup.
    2019- 1713 taps on 3/16 + vacuum, NO buckets. Made 500 gallons.
    2020- 2793 taps made 1118 gallons.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Stockbridge,Ma
    Posts
    151

    Default

    I know someone who was trucking concentrate and they stopped. All it ever made was dark and very dark syrup. What do you think your daily routine would look like? Do you have remote monitoring for your tank so you will know when to go start the RO? Are you going to start the RO and wait for it to concentrate or leave and come back when you think it is done? Truck your concentrate then go back to take care of the RO? Lots to think about and plan how your time is spent.
    First introduced to making maple syrup in 1969
    Making syrup every year since 1979
    3 x 10 oil fired
    Revolution syrup and max flue pan
    About 1300 taps on gravity, vacuum someday
    Bought first Marcland drawoff in 1997, still going strong.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Southwest Minnesota
    Posts
    45

    Default

    This is a good topic.
    I lost a big batch last year because it was warm and I could not get to it to boil.

    This year I tried to gather all available sap. RO it for 2-4 hours and boil it. It was usually to much to do in a day but we were well on our way by 8 o’clock at night. So the next day we could finish boil clean everything and start over while the RO was going. Cleaning between batches was a game changer. As well as having plenty of RO capacity. Most of my syrup was right at the amber to dark range. Wonderful stuff.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Williston, VT
    Posts
    130

    Default

    [I have an insulated distillery tank which I think will help. [/QUOTE]

    Insulated tank won't help since the heat from pumping and ROing will introduce heat into the concentrate - unless you refrigerate like Proctor.
    Ken & Sherry
    Williston, VT

    2017 - 13 gallons on 65 taps (12 buckets, rest 3/16), 2x4 flat bottom, modified cargo box sugarhouse
    2018 - 90 gallons on 418 taps (gravity lines), Leader 30"x10' Vortex Arch & Max Raised Flue with Rev Syrup Pan, New Sugarhouse
    2019 - Burned through alot more money: heated kitchen, 2x2,000 and 375 gal ss sap tanks, CDL1200 RO, Bauch Vac Pump, More taps, etc., etc., etc.
    https://www.facebook.com/pumpkinhillmaple/

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    South Colton, NY
    Posts
    602

    Default

    Brian you have pump stations correct? Do you concentrate before you truck?[/QUOTE]

    No trucking, we have 3 releasers that pump to a tank that feeds the RO. The RO processes about 1,000 gallons per hour which is recirulated until we get 12 percent or so and then boiled.
    3,100 taps
    60 cfm flood
    HC2
    5 by 14 oil

    Brian

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New Hartford, N.Y.
    Posts
    2,006

    Default

    Regardless if you RO at the woods and haul it or RO at the sugarhouse, if it's going to have to set for a while it needs to be refrigerated. Keeping the concentrate cold is key. And if you RO at the woods, you would need to get the concentrate home pretty quickly and keep it in another insulated tank, and then boil it pretty soon. Unless that one is refrigerated also.

    Four years ago I got a 500 gal. Mueller bulk tank operational. Hands down, behind the RO itself, it is the best sugaring tool I own. It allows me to keep concentrate for days, with no degrading that I can detect, and boil when I have either enough sap and/or enough time. And I do not make only dark syrup with the concentrate. I have made all different grades over the years with the concentrate from it. It has been a game changer for my operation. No more worries about losing sap or lost concentrate.

    Steve
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

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