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Thread: permeate question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    stafford, N.Y.
    Posts
    69

    Default permeate question

    sure it has been asked before,,,,,,,
    how long does permeate last if kept cold?
    I mean it is pure water and should not spoil,,,right.
    I would like to hang on to some from week to week between runs
    for flushing the ro and mid week clean up.
    2016-2022
    2 homemade barrel cookers.
    1 2x3 flat pan with pre-heater.
    1 3x4 constant flow pan with pre-heater.
    10/20 - 5/16 taps on buckets.
    1 new ro bucket.
    And a very understanding wife.

    2023-9 gallons made
    New DIY oil tank evaporator
    25 - 5/16 taps with drops to buckets.
    Same pans.
    Same wife.

    2024 operation moved to brothers house.
    16 5/16 taps/drops to buckets.
    1 ex wife........

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    If you in fact have absolutely no sugar passed, it will last a few months. My testing using a long sap hydrometer (more accurate readings) after boiling the permeate down to 1/10 the original volume I still can't get a reading on sugar in it, but when I empty a gallon jug of distilled water and then fill it with permeate and cap it, after 8-9 months I see a growth, thus there must be a slight amount of sugar passing is my guess.
    In season I keep my excess permeate until the end, however if I start running low, I take that time to drain it into another cleaned tank and then use it to wash the permeate tank.
    Since I also grow blueberries I actually save that water for mixing with my insecticide sprays during the season. Each time I use just over 50 gal of permeate starting as soon as the berries first show any blue and then every 7-10 days thru the season, which usually means about June 8-12 to start and about Aug 20 to end. In that time the permeate still looks clear just looking into the 1000 gal tank I use.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    stafford, N.Y.
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Yeah thanks, Like I said, I would like to keep it for flushing between weeks of boiling and stuff.
    sounds like it is ok to keep if for a while and just add to it each time I run the RO.
    I have 1 barrel for raw sap, one for concentrate and one for permeate.
    2016-2022
    2 homemade barrel cookers.
    1 2x3 flat pan with pre-heater.
    1 3x4 constant flow pan with pre-heater.
    10/20 - 5/16 taps on buckets.
    1 new ro bucket.
    And a very understanding wife.

    2023-9 gallons made
    New DIY oil tank evaporator
    25 - 5/16 taps with drops to buckets.
    Same pans.
    Same wife.

    2024 operation moved to brothers house.
    16 5/16 taps/drops to buckets.
    1 ex wife........

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    What size is your RO. In general, you want at least 2x the hourly rate (for sap input) in permeate storage. Thus if the RO does 25 gph, of sap input, you need at least 50 gal for permeate storage. Mine does 250 gal/hr, so I need 500 gal storage, in fact I have 1000 gal tank, extra is not a bad thing.
    I think some states have a max allowed permeate storage but I'm not aware of any such in NY state.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    stafford, N.Y.
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Sorry for the late reply.
    Nothing that big..I bought the RO bucket this year..got the RB10. does 10-12 gallons per hour. Saving me a lot of boil time.
    Little bigger than I need but leaves me room to expand my tap count if I want to.
    It gives my enough water to clean my stuff after each run.
    2016-2022
    2 homemade barrel cookers.
    1 2x3 flat pan with pre-heater.
    1 3x4 constant flow pan with pre-heater.
    10/20 - 5/16 taps on buckets.
    1 new ro bucket.
    And a very understanding wife.

    2023-9 gallons made
    New DIY oil tank evaporator
    25 - 5/16 taps with drops to buckets.
    Same pans.
    Same wife.

    2024 operation moved to brothers house.
    16 5/16 taps/drops to buckets.
    1 ex wife........

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Williston, VT
    Posts
    615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maple flats View Post
    I think some states have a max allowed permeate storage but I'm not aware of any such in NY state.
    Why would the state set limits on permeate storage?
    Ken & Sherry
    Williston, VT
    16x34 Sugarhouse
    1,500 taps on high vacuum, Electric Releaser & CDL Sap Lifter
    Wood-Fired Leader 30"x10' Vortex Arch & Max Raised Flue with Rev Syrup Pan & CDL1200 RO
    https://www.facebook.com/pumpkinhillmaple/

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake County Ohio
    Posts
    1,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TapTapTap View Post
    Why would the state set limits on permeate storage?
    because they can...
    John Allin

    14x18 Hemlock Timber Frame Sugar House 2009
    Leader 2x6 w/Patriot Raised Flue Pan 2009
    Leader Steam Hood 2014 - Clear Filter Press 2015
    Leader Revolution Pan and SS Pre-Heater 2016
    CDL Hobby RO & Air Tech L25 Hi Vac Pump 2019
    06' Gator HPX to collect wood & sap
    14' Ski-Doo Tundra for winter work in the woods
    Great Family 3 grown kids+spouses and 7 grand kids who like the woods
    7th Gen Born in Canada - Raised in Chardon Ohio - Maple Capital of the World..<grin>.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    I'm not sure why some do, but I've heard they do. John Allin is right.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Greenwood, Me
    Posts
    974

    Default

    Maple Johnson is right about John Allin Johnson being right!

    REVVER!
    2024 - New Maine resident, 12X12 sugar shack under construction
    2019 - New 12X12 boiling pavilion
    2018 - New Mason 2X3 Hobby XL and homemade RO

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Almonte
    Posts
    43

    Default

    What's the difference between a ph meter and a tds meter when testing the permeate water?

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