Basic question: tubing on flat ground?

[stimyg]

I’ve always assumed tubing isn’t for me because I only have had 20-30 taps and more importantly my land is perfectly flat. I‘m hoping to run more like 30-50 taps this year, which I was still going to do on buckets, because, flat ground. And I don’t want to deal with pumps.

But it just occurred to me... duh... and it seems corroborated by what I’m reading on the forum here:

Can I get a slope just by tapping higher up a tree, with a ladder say? My trees are all fairly close together. Is that how people run gravity tubing on flat ground? Is it that simple or is it more difficult or not recommended for some reason?

I know nothing about tubing design since I’ve always assumed that had nothing to do with me. But do I now have a whole new world of tapping to consider!?

(Also is it worth the hassle or should I just stick with my buckets, which are fairly entertaining to empty so long as I don’t do it too often - I’m only up on the weekends anyway.)

[Russell Lampron]

Yes you can do that. My suggestion would be to run a 3/4" mainline and 5/16" tubing. Run a support wire to attach the mainline to. Secure it high at the end tree away from the collection point and as low as possible at the collection point. Try to get a 2% grade and use tie back wires to maintain slope. Then run lateral lines into the mainline making sure that they slope to the mainline. The rule of thumb is 5 taps per lateral but no more than 10.

If you can, talk to another sugarmaker and look at his woods. More than likely he would love to do it and give you some pointers.

[wmick]

I did the Ladder thing last year.. with the same notion as you.... After I went to all that work, I was advised that going higher up the tree just offsets the head pressure created by the tree... Higher Tap=Less Sap... I cant say for sure if this is true, but it came from a trusted "expert" on this Forum. In my case, I use a diaphragm pump to draw the sap through 3/16" lines to a tote, so my line slope probably didn't gain me a whole lot...
If you are only visiting weekly, Id assume running a pump is not an option... and I'd suggest that normal sized buckets are not big enough for a week of sap.

Just a suggestion..... What about setting up three or four 40 gallon drums up central to your taps and run short 3/16 gravity tubes to them... (or one ibc tote, etc.). Then you just need to empty the drums on your weekly visit... Maybe with a portable pump?

[30AcreWoods]

The short answer is "yes", you can tap higher to create slope. The downside is that you do drop available head pressure in the tree as you move up, which means less sap production. However, if you can tap more trees and collection is easier with tubing, then maybe the loss is offset by ease of collection, etc. Dr. Tim responded to this very question on a different thread today. I believe he said that moving from bucket height up to 10' or so off the ground on a 100' tree will cause a loss of about 10% of stem pressure. My experience with 3/16" tubing is that it makes things a lot easier for collection, and I have a few cases where I'm up pretty high on trees to bridge low spots on my land. I do have a significant elevation change, so some of my lines will pull 27.5" vac. (without a pump), but others are on relatively level ground and the sap runs good, even where I've tapped 8' to 10' up the trunks. I would offer you should give it a try and see how it goes as it might work well. And I agree with the suggestion to maybe use a few totes or barrels so you don't have super long runs, and can terminate a few shorter runs into a single collection barrel. Moving sap by hand is fun...for a little while!

[steve J]

Last year when I first experimented with a sur flo pumps I converted 15 trees that had been on bucket to 3/16th line and there was only a slight grade. It was unbelievable how much sap I was pulling. I later added another line that was coming off from a steep grade with equal success. I would think if you added a pump to your 5/16th line you will get a good return.

[30AcreWoods]

Steve,

How did your setup work for pump control? Some folks are in the woods, without power supply and/or daily access to turn pumps off and on, etc. It's definitely tempting.

I should have added that I use check valve taps - single use. There is a bunch of new data coming out of Cornell and UVM that support the use of check valves, clean drops and cleaning tubing annually - especially if you are using smaller diameter 3/16" tubing.

[steve J]

I used a deep cycle 12 volt battery and an inexpensive temp. control that I bought online. There are a couple threads on here that show you how to set up this kind of system. I will say if you got an interstate battery center near you that you can buy a reconditioned battery for far less than new. I just bought one for $40.00 and they backed it for 90 days which will more than get me thru the season.

[Sugar Bear]

OK

So I had to learn all this by trial and error over the past 4 years of tapping with tubing and buckets and much highly valued input from this website.

In my experience individual 5 gallon buckets with short tubing into a sealed collection pail are the most effective way to collect sap UNLESS you have a substantial amount of slope in your grove such that you have gravity on your side and or produce natural vacuum and/or you have a pump/vacuum on your lines. However even with good slope alone in your grove ( No pump ) I think you are better off production wise with individual buckets at each tap. If however you are using 3/16" tubing your slope alone may and for many tappers does produce better then individual buckets as natural vacuum is achieved by them. I have not worked with 3/16" tubing so can't speak for it.

If you took a two foot section of 5/16" tube and tried to blow air through it with your mouth you would do pretty well, if you took a 500 foot roll of 5/16" tubing and tried to blow air through it with your mouth you would do pretty poorly. If we had to hide from somebody underwater using a three foot section of 5/16 tube to breath through we might be able to do it for a while and live. If we had to breath through a 500' stretch of the same tubing we would die ... pretty quickly.

Why??? well just think about it.

Something has to move for something to flow. We suffer that problem EVERYWHERE, whether it be in a traffic jam or electricity flowing down the power lines.

Or most unfortunately of all sap flowing down our lines.

Sap suffers from a lot of the same kind of difficulty when it runs through tubing. Not as much as air because of its mass and inertia, but the obstacles are similar in nature.

So the more tubing that sap has to flow through ( compiled with all the T fittings that by unfortunate design also reduce flow ) the less sap you are going to get unless you make up for it with one of two ways or both ways ...

1) Gravity or 2) Pump/vacuum

If you don't want to use these or can't then as mentioned in the previous post you should use a larger main line with runs ( I would say 5 or less taps on 5/16 into the larger line ) The less taps you have on each connection to the larger mainline the better off you will be. Restrictions will mount even with 5 taps on level ground. And even on a slope. I GUARANTEE IT TO ALL! The larger mainline will give more room for the sap to flow freely and get it to where you want it. You will effectively be closer to where you would be with each tap on a drop to a TIGHTLY SEALED individual bucket which it my experience has proven to be the best producer of sap in situations where natural vacuum can not be obtained and/or powered vacuum is not an option.

In my experience, the individual buckets on 3 foot drops to tightly sealed 5 gallon pales with CV taps also seem to last every single bit as long as those on long runs of gravity tubing.

Food rated Lids that tightly seal on most 5 gallon pales are available at Walmart for $1.17 each.

I don't make any money on any of this stuff, but at least I am learning a lot.

[30AcreWoods]

Steve, thanks for the 12v batter tip...I'll look into it.

Sugar Bear, thanks for adding all of your experience here. My experience with 3/16" tubing has been as you suggested - very positive due to gradient. I will say, though, that it doesn't take much gradient to be effective. The most important factor is the elevation difference (which is different than overall slope) between the majority of the taps on a run and the final collection point. The falling mass of sap droplets in the 3/16" line take up the entire inner diameter of the tubing, thus creating a suction behind them, which in turn yields more sap = more mass = more suction, etc. It all makes sense when I dust off the long ago archived brain cells used during my fluid dynamics classes in college!

[Sugar Bear]

Steve, thanks for the 12v batter tip...I'll look into it.

Sugar Bear, thanks for adding all of your experience here. My experience with 3/16" tubing has been as you suggested - very positive due to gradient. I will say, though, that it doesn't take much gradient to be effective. The most important factor is the elevation difference (which is different than overall slope) between the majority of the taps on a run and the final collection point. The falling mass of sap droplets in the 3/16" line take up the entire inner diameter of the tubing, thus creating a suction behind them, which in turn yields more sap = more mass = more suction, etc. It all makes sense when I dust off the long ago archived brain cells used during my fluid dynamics classes in college!

Yes ... I am tempted to try the 3/16 tubing. Elevation difference? What would be the minimum in feet in your opinion? Have you had any clogging problems with the 3/16" tubing? It seems to me that any fittings, even one, that are within the falling sap will corrupt it and reduce the natural vacuum, would that be the case. "Fittings" fit VERY poorly with respect to flowing sap, in any setup that I have seen.

I am wondering if one can't create any natural vacuum with say 5/16 tubing because they have some drop but not nearly enough drop, would they be better off with a one way valve at the beginning of their run? Lets air in, to let the sap out of the line faster into the collection tank, because 5/16 does fill with sap if their is not enough drop. And if you are not benefiting from a natural vacuum fall would you be better off with the valve??