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Thread: RO question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Minnesota
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    Default RO question

    Planning a home built ro for next year. After reading through all the builds and comments here I'm a little confused on a couple things. I evaporate at 50 gph on a 2x6 and will tap 365 -430ish trees next year.
    The best set up I have come up with is ..1.5 motor on a 330 procon,running two 4x40 xle-4040's. That's the main big pieces anyways. I've seen posters contradicting others as to what capacity this setup would do. Seems like the 330 would not handle the 2 membranes in parallel , but would be ample flow for running them in series. Which is my question..if let's say I was able to process through 100 gallons raw sap an hour with the 330 feeding a single post, what happens when the second is added in series? I know the brix will go higher in one pass, but does the overall gallons per hour processed go up any?
    My concern is that I wont be able to get anywhere near the 50 gph I need to keep up to the evaporator. Which isnt a big deal right? I see some on here process hours ahead of starting the fire so they can get ahead of the cooker. Im not real sure what to expect from the 330 with 2 post in series as far as the brix and gallons of concentrate coming out of the RO per hour. Maybe I'd be best to buy a bigger pump and run the 2 membranes in parallel? Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Minnesota
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    I should say I read that a 330 would technically work with 2 post in parallel. But not flow enough causing premature membrane fowling.

  3. #3
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    Mar 2018
    Location
    Georgia VT
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    You would be fine with that pump and 2 membranes IN PARALLEL, should give you 80-100 gallons of concentrate per hr. Providing you are ok with removing 50% water per pass to double your sugar, this is great.

    So, 2% to 4% would yeild more than enough to keep up. Try to squeeze to 8%...it will slow down and you may be close or below that 50 number per hour. Fouling would happen quicker, but how much are you processing each time? 500gallons? No problem. 1000? Thats an issue.

    Ive found that with my 4 inch nf90 membranes, 50% removal per pass is the most efficient way to concentrate. For example, if I had 200 gallons of 2% sap, and passed it twice. Once gives me 100 gallons of 4% in less than an hr. Second pass would give me close to 40 gal of 10% in 45 min, so I get better concentration in less time If I were to pass the whole 200 gallons squeezed to 8%, I would be working the ro harder for 2 hours for less concentration. Just my experience, but every situation and build will be different.
    200 on 3/16" vacuum plus some buckets
    D&G 2x6 7" drop flue wood fired
    Lapierre 200gph RO
    "We like it sticky"

  4. #4
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    Feb 2007
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    CAPAC MICHIGAN
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    same 330 gph will go thru the menbranes, permeate should be around 1.5/2gpm depending on temp of the sap and your hi pressure. concentrate should be 3/4 gpm . i do 2 passes and sometimes 3 before i send it to the head tank
    2x6 RAISED FLUE PANS
    by WF MASON
    350 taps on vac.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Minnesota
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    The most I would process at one time should be less than 750 gallons. And that would happen maybe once or twice a season.If I did plumb them in parallel,Then made a recirculating line after each membrane that fed back to before the procon inlet...wouldnt that help prolong use before fouling? I do agree with faster processing at lower brix. my goal isnt necessarily high brix as possible. 8-10% and I would be very happy. My trees usually put out 3-4% raw .Forgive me I'm still new to this..i know after each use they need flushing with permeate. But once they actually start to fouling and slow down, does permeate flush do any good? Or at that point is it time for soap/acid?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Georgia VT
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    26

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    If you have 3-4 brix trees you are a very lucky man.

    You will have to experiment with your RO, after benchmarking your flow rates when new. Many times a rinse with permeate ( no pressure, just rip it through) will restore your flow rates. You are just removing particulates from the surface of a filter. At some point ( 10-15hours of use) you may need to do a soap wash. There are a lot of variables. Also keep,in mind your permeate flows will drop with higher concentrations, even 8%, and that is normal. You need to soap when you are 15-20 % below your benchmark flows, wherever you choose to set those. Just be consistent and compare apples to apples, in regards to sap temp, water removal rate, pressures, ect.
    200 on 3/16" vacuum plus some buckets
    D&G 2x6 7" drop flue wood fired
    Lapierre 200gph RO
    "We like it sticky"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Middlesex, Vermont
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Tapper,
    I am planning a ProCon 330 and 2 post set up myself this summer. From what I have read, this combination will do everything just fine. There are several threads talking about this but there is a fair amount of filtering and reading. The site search button works ok but I have found that Google might do you a bit better for specifics.
    That said, just like was mentioned will be getting your benchmarks from the beginning when all is new. It helps that a lot of folks have built these so we have a really decent starting like to look at. Of course each is going to be slightly different but good to have some actual real life guidelines to go by. Good luck and please keep us posted!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mead Maple "It's for the kids..."
    Paul Cerminara
    2019 - First season ever
    -Homemade 275 gallon oil drum arch
    -75 taps, all on traditional buckets and drops into 5 gallon buckets
    -Goal: 3 gallons
    -Season Total: 7.5 gallons - pulled taps after running out of firewood and time
    -Fear: Becoming a member of MT.com and getting bit

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    519

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    Pressure is a big variable. You remove a lot more water at 280psi vs 150psi. My single 4in deer run can process 120 gph at 280 psi and remove 50% water, more if I open the recirc line but processing speeds slow down. At higher pressure with 2 membranes you should get close to 75% water removal.
    2019 - 150 taps 3/16 shurflo, Deer Run 125 dolly RO - 73 gallons
    2018 - 120 taps 3/16 hybrid (shurflo), 2x6 raised flue w/hood, homemade arch w/ AUF & AOF - 34.5 gallons
    2017 - 60 taps 3/16 gravity, oil tank arck w/ steam pans - 12.5 gallons

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Marysville, Ohio
    Posts
    641

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    Two 4x40 XLE's in series with a 330 pump should do what you need. You only need to do about 65% water removal to get up to 8%. With this set up you can feed about 125 gph of sap at 3% and make about 45 gph of 8% concentrate. If you run the membrane in parallel it will work, but the flow through each membrane is well below the minimums recommended by the membrane manufacturer. Good luck!
    Leader 1/2 pint - Kawasaki Mule - Smoky Lake Filter Bottler
    24 GPH RO, 2 1/2 x 40 NF3 (NF270), 140 GPH (Brass with no relief valve ) ProCon pump
    2013 - 44 taps on buckets - 16 gallons syrup, 2014 - 109 taps on buckets - 26 gallons syrup
    2015 - 71 taps on buckets - 13.5 gallons syrup, 2016 - 125 taps on buckets - 24.25 gallons syrup
    2017 - 129 taps on buckets - 17.5 gallons syrup, 2018 - 128 taps on buckets - 18 gallons syrup
    2019 -130 taps on buckets - 18.5 gallons syrup

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Middlesex, Vermont
    Posts
    113

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowhunter View Post
    Two 4x40 XLE's in series with a 330 pump should do what you need. You only need to do about 65% water removal to get up to 8%. With this set up you can feed about 125 gph of sap at 3% and make about 45 gph of 8% concentrate. If you run the membrane in parallel it will work, but the flow through each membrane is well below the minimums recommended by the membrane manufacturer. Good luck!
    Bowhunter, glad you chummed in. I read many of your postings with Diesel Pros thread. Thanks for your input!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mead Maple "It's for the kids..."
    Paul Cerminara
    2019 - First season ever
    -Homemade 275 gallon oil drum arch
    -75 taps, all on traditional buckets and drops into 5 gallon buckets
    -Goal: 3 gallons
    -Season Total: 7.5 gallons - pulled taps after running out of firewood and time
    -Fear: Becoming a member of MT.com and getting bit

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