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Thread: It's time to get the design finalized

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default It's time to get the design finalized

    My Father and I are building a new Sugarhouse this year. The current one is too small to handle the larger evaporator and we need to build an insulated RO room. We are moving from a 2x6 Leader WSE to a CDL Deluxe 3X10 oil fired evaporator (See I know how to spell it, my image was not corrected before saving).

    We are still in the planning phase and will start dismantling our current buildings as soon as the season is done. We pretty much have the design I posted below in mind. We are looking for suggestions for drains and passing through the truss bays with the smoke stack and through the roof (I just found an old post which talked about stacking metal spaced 1" and also wrapping insulation around the stack with an outer piece added on).

    There is going to be a concrete slab in the area where the large sap tank, evaporator room, and RO room down to the "-------" vertical line. The rest of the space in the open area will be gravel to store equipment. The walls are going to be 2x6 and 12' tall. We are planning scissor type trusses over the evaporator until the left (in the picture) side of the RO room. Then we will transition to an attic truss which will go about 22' (whichever truss is a good stopping point) into the shop area. Then we will transition back to a scissor truss to allow for equipment clearance and storage. We are discussing the need to go to a 6" floor vs a 4" floor (maybe 6" under the evaporator area and 4" everywhere else. We are going to insulate under the floor and use concrete footings and wall 4' below grade. We are also exploring drain options and are looking at the heavier plastic long drains on both sides and behind the evaporator. We feel we can get the water from the hood to cool enough before it hits the drain to be an issue. One thing I am keeping in mind here is the disease...expansion. I would like to make sure the drains are in a position so they can work for a larger (4x12 or so) evaporator. We are at 400 taps and moving to 1000-1200 for the time being and will likely be here for awhile. I don't see a larger evaporator at this time, but don't want to set limits. I am thinking the drains should be about 2-3' off either side of the evaporator.

    To start we will have a holding tank for water in the RO room with a hot water heater and pressure tank. There is a water pipe buried which I hook to a hose spigot on my house in warmer weather. Otherwise we will haul water to keep the 100 or gallon tank full until we have enough permeate/hot water from the steam hood.

    The counter top area will be stainless steel. The stove area is a thought in place of a propane burner to keep sap warm for filtering. The sink drains and water supply will have shut offs or designed so water/drain is in the RO room which will be heated.

    We are open to ideas and suggestions. Pictures would be great. Thank you in advance.

    Mike


    Sugar House.jpg
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Potsdam in far northern New York
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Right off the top I'd worry that a 3x10 might be way too big for 800 taps, but maybe you've got more trees in mind. I put my floor drain right in the middle of the floor under the evaporator and pitched the floor a tiny bit. Water spilled or dripping anywhere in the room runs to that drain and it doesn't care what evaporator sits over it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    I agree, I did 1320 taps on a 3x8 with my 250 GPH RO, plus I processed sap from others to the tune of up to 2000 more taps (gravity only) . I did use the RO frequently doing double pass, but my longest boil was only about 5 hrs, most were more like 2.5-3 hrs.
    Unless you really think you will be expanding to a lot more in the next few years a 3x10 oil fired is too much. You need to realize that oil fired will give you considerably better GPH evaporation, but you still don't want to run your boils too short. If you grow to tax a 3x8, then get a better or bigger RO.
    Just my opinion.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    The evaporator size was up in the air at first. We are spending a lot of time with the 2x6 and we would rather spend it in the woods. We looked at 2.5' and 3' wide. We looked at 8' and 10' long. From reading here it was pretty clear to me the 3' evaporation rate seems to be a lot more than either in 2.5' widths. Then came the decision of 8' or 10'. We did not consider anything larger at this time. Our plans were to grow to 800 taps this year, but job changes and more than one job got in the way. We are well on the way to establishing the mainline and pump line for the area with 800 taps. That is a starting point with a plan to grow to 1,000 between this year and next. Now it is to finish the 800 and go to 1000. This area would allow us to tap nearly everything on the property with the current collection point. The final goal is going to be about 1000-1200 and pause for...for...for maybe a year. We are due to log the property in the next couple years and did not want to load the area with lines. There are enough hemlocks in the area we need a logger to get the area cleared for expansion. I have no idea what the future will bring and do not want to get locked in to not being able to expand. We are coming from a nice old fashion sugarhouse my Grandfather build in 1970's and now it has three buildings attached used in maple processing and two more with support equipment. I don't want to go back to a shanty town look. I also don't want upgrade equipment any time in the future...been there and done that for other equipment and it's not cheap.

    Thanks,

    Mike
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Old sugarhouse and supporting sheds April 2018
    M1tNhBvrR5anlQgPE9E2vg.jpg

    Using forks to remove the roof systems and save some of the lumber for repurposing.
    arPUPY7jT0638vmDQIvyew.jpg

    Used insulating forms for the Alaskan Slab.
    2bdkSgmDRhmh1UmOsQ1iqQ.jpg

    Conduit and pipes were run under the stone giving access for wiring, fuel line, water, and drains. Should have added a couple for additional wiring to save from having to route through the walls and trusses. Mid September 2018
    4vqQdpBNTYyFrC8cBnL2fg.jpg

    Concrete in place, just a week before cold weather set in for the year (earlier than normal). The larger puddle on the right is a result of the primary evaporator area drain still covered with duct tape. October 2018
    GMsSsCC8TRC2n%KXV3KODg.jpg
    Last edited by VT_K9; 09-19-2019 at 09:38 PM.
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Chatham NH
    Posts
    1,309

    Default

    That 3x10 will be fine, were not talking about a souped up rig with a steam away and reverse fired and all the goodies, it's a basic oil fired rig, probably boil about 110-125 gph. You might have to hold sap a day on slow runs but slow runs are generally because of cooler weather so you'll be fine. I ran 300 taps on my 2.5x8 for a few years and it worked great I'd boil 6-700 gallons every few days instead of boiling 5 hrs a day on a 2x6 every day.
    You might make some Darker Syrup but That's no big deal Dark is where it's at unless you're trying to make candy. Have fun with your new rig.
    Nate Hutchins
    Nate & Kate's Maple
    2022 1000 taps?
    3x10 Intensofire
    20x36 sugarhouse
    CDL 600gph RO
    A wife and 2 kids.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Walls went up in sections using the excavator to lift and set them in place.
    IqsP1HH5QH+Tu6k+p62GGQ.jpg

    We had the trusses placed on the top plates and moved them in place with additional help and a lift from inside the building.
    IXJlnRb8Qo6OiEQtrUuyfg.jpg

    YQWCLmS2SlWSJh4a5boSqg.jpg

    We placed 5/8" Advantec sheathing on the trusses and covered that with Grace Membrane. We'll place the metal roofing on top this fall.
    s1MWLdfkTfiQ5ndygKkXLA.jpg

    We had the 3x10 CDL evaporator moved from my wife's garage bay to the sugarhouse by flatbed wrecker. Worked out great.
    bn2kdM2kQPCWqOP6eot+HQ.jpg
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    L to R: Raw sap tank, permeate, and evaporator.
    AI+3OMVITom23wOJckOWsw.jpg

    CDL and Pick and Shovel on scene for first fire and tune up. January 2019
    4hd3rExBTeu46fowvhmOnA.jpg

    During the design phase we debated 10' vs 12' walls. 12' gave us better storage over head for any future upgrades. We were going to just do the RO room (on the left) and then decided to run I-joists the width of the building to have more storage overhead.
    RPj39FkcQLWhoA9B+3UCIw.jpg

    View of the tanks and evaporator area.
    V21JVm4VTy+i1bGHlXdSVw.jpg

    View of the garage area.
    4uRplbrkRSKQygL+Z+vDvw.jpg
    Last edited by VT_K9; 09-19-2019 at 09:39 PM.
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    This is the feed tank. Last year we pumped from the sap tank to it. Next year the RO will push concentrate to it.
    26SrfQDqSuyLCmr9tj5hpA.jpg

    The feed tank supplies the evaporator through 1 1/2 sch 40 pipe.
    40pbBqA7TMygkprA5uOaxg.jpg

    We put two unions into the feed line so we can lift the hood for cleaning.
    t79xkSQ1R0+4vvX4uYntWw.jpg

    First fire and success. Everything went pretty smooth. Boiled raw sap faster than our 250 gph RO with 2x6 evaporator.
    ggKYAdxaTeuJ+4VncR7Zog.jpg

    Kitchen area. Plans are to use SS sheets on the counter top and replace the table with a SS table. Still finalizing some placement of kitchen items.
    1uINeAPyRBm0Od92aStWEQ.jpg
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Thetford, VT
    Posts
    450

    Default

    We'll plumb a sink in here. We are looking for a 7' sink with dual washboards. We picked this one up at the right price, but the washboard will make the difference.
    u28vvfFBRfSHgbO6NhXxjw.jpg

    This the view of the "wall" separating the garage from the processing areas. We have doors in place and handrail up. Just need to finish the wall to the ceiling contour. We can place items onto the platform with forks using the tractor. We have shelving and several rodent proof container for storage in the room.
    fSjPh9iVQwaSa31H564uNw.jpg


    Still need to install metal roofing, after finishing the eaves and building the gable overhang. Finish the sliding garage doors (should be this week). Put siding on (still need to cut the logs for the sawmill). Run the vacuum and pump lines to the new sap shack (about 200' will be elevated 16 or so feet in the air using telephone poles). Still have some grading to do around the exterior of the building and finish the driveway for easier plowing this winter.

    Looking forward to this year.
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

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