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Thread: Series Loop preheater

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default Series Loop preheater

    I must apologize for starting another preheater thread but I can't find the answer. I have built a series loop preheater for under my hood. Its current configuration has 12 5' runs plus elbows then exits to the float box for the the flue pan. My questions are.

    1. Should preheater only be over the flue pan? mine currently extends over the front pans.
    2. How to add a vent and where in the system to add it? Does it matter on location if the tubing is level?
    3. Does a bypass double as a vent if I notice vapor lock occuring.
    4. Should I tear it apart and build a parallel style.
    5. What materials are safe to use for a drip tray? Aluminum, copper, SS.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Nassau, NY
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Please post pictures for those of you who have built these. I am interested in putting one over my flue pan as well. Thanks

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default

    2.jpgthumbnail.jpg3.jpg

    current setup. Hoping someone can give me some tips on how to proceed. I know i need to raise the piping and add a drip tray so far. Need to figure out a vent and by pass.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    634

    Default

    I think parallel flow would be superior because it would reduce vapor lock. In your current setup the sap has to work back down a raised preheater setup plus if at any point in the run vapor lock occurs then there is no alternate path for the sap to flow vs a parallel flow preheater
    Camp Wokanda
    Peoria Park District

    2023 - 210 on 3/16 shurflo, sap storage shack w/ 1100 gallon tank - 123 gallons
    2022 - 210 on 3/16 shurflo, homemade vac filter & water jacket canner - 104 gallons
    2021 - 215 on 3/16 shurflo, added 2nd membrane to RO - 78 gallons
    2020 - 210 on 3/16 shurflo, upgraded hp pump on RO - 66 gallons
    2019 - 150 on 3/16 shurflo, Deer Run 125 dolly RO - 73 gallons
    2018 - 120 on 3/16 shurflo, 2x6 raised flue w/hood, homemade arch w/ AUF & AOF - 34.5 gallons

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Has anyone used an automatic air bleed valve from a heating system? Could this type of vent be used to vent steam in side preheater piping?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default

    I have a feeling that I will be tearing it apart and re configuring it into a parallel setup. The more I read the more problems I keep coming up with. I wont be happy about it but I believe in the end it may be what needs to be done.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,565

    Default

    Unless there is something missing in your picture, your design is flawed. For one thing, with all of the tubing in the steam but having no drain tray to catch the large amount of condensation, you may not see any net gain. With cold sap flowing thru the long tubing it will sweat big time. That will then drip back into the pan to be boiled again and again. Yes, the sap will warm but at a huge loss of potential because of the condensation going back into the pans.
    Does your hood set down on the raised flue pan? If not is should, also, it should not be out in the open over the syrup pan, and the stack on the flue hood should have a damper. To use it for the best gain, when you are boiling hard, close the damper slowly, just until steam begins the leak out of any leak spots, the lock it in that position.
    You will do far better if you design a parallel flow, even 2 tiers, all in the flue pan portion of the hood, with the hood setting down on the flue pan. Each section (whether 1-2 or even more) of the parallel design should rise from one end to the other. Then the entire system of tubes should join into 1, from there it could exit to the float box, or turn and rise again thru another like the first. With the rise the warming sap climbs the slope(mine is just 1.0" rise in a 54" long preheater, which then goes up to another level and then rises another inch to over the point where the first sap entered and from there it flows to the float box supply pipe).
    Under the set of parallel tubes is a catch tray, which is also sloped and it drains of into the hood gutter and out, it also is under the steam stack, catching that condensate too.
    If I have missed something I'm sorry if I misjudged it, I just called it as I saw it.
    Last edited by maple flats; 03-03-2019 at 07:31 PM.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,565

    Default

    I suggest you have vents, I used baseboard heat system SS coin vents. However I've never needed to vent. On mine the sap enters the hood just above the gutter in the hood, it then flows thru a header and from there climbs up 1" in 54" to another header. Then it climbs to another header and then climbs another inch in 54" as it goes back over the inlet and a 4th header. Each corner has a coin vent. My head tank is 16" above the preheater inlet, at the outlet the hot sap flows out of the hood and goes to a T (actually a 1" T designed for a coin vent in hot water heating) I have a thermostae in the 1/4 threaded port, and the sap flows past that and flows down to the float box inlet. That design has worked perfectly, except I wish maybe I had built it with more long tubes. Mine has 10 lengths of 1/2" copper, 54" long, plus the 4 headers and elbows. I raise my sap to between 160-170F but only until my auto draw opens, then by the end of the draw my sap is down to 120-130F. Had I made it 4 tiers rather than 2 I would have gotten hotter sap during a draw.
    Good luck!
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default

    I really appreciate the replies. I'll be honest until about a day ago I didn't realize how flawed it was until i visited a friends sugar house and realized the condensate issues. This lead to the internet. Unfortunately this also lead me to learn about vapor-lock issues. It seems I fell into the weeds on something I didn't realize was so complicated. I'm glad I did as its a fairly simple fix. I will up date after modifications are made and with pictures. I hope my mistakes help the next person. Can some one post some pictures of what and how the vents are set up. what parts I should look to get at the store to make the vents. Much appreciated for the help guys.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17

    Default

    where do you source those ss coin vents? Would you have part numbers?

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