The effects of rain on tap holes.

[whity]

Are you referring to water entering the tap hole if your tapping in the rain? Prior to inserting the tap? Or effects of water getting in after pulling taps? Or possibly water/rain seeping around the tap?

[Sugar Bear]

"Rain/Heavy Rain/ Warm Rain in the near forecast any more or less so then say just the same conditions without rain ( amounts may differ )"

This doesnt say a thing related to water infiltrating a tap hole around a inserted spout? Bungs have been known to stop water from leaking out of barrels filled with fluid for years. Educate me! I agree if the tap is not set right you might get water in, but I bet you would get more sap on the ground than water in the tap hole?


Chris

Chris and Tim

I am sure you have both made more syrup and are smarter then me. I am on this website trying to pic the brains of people smarter then me.

OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one.

The algorithm is not intended for large operations like yours who need to get taps in early just because they have so many and so much time is required to get it done.

Its more for the small guy who says in late January or early February ...

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with 2" of rain == "DON'T TAP YET"

VS

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with no rain == "TAP ANYWAY"

Not real complicated.

Just no evidence that anybody can come up with in order to support the LOC. ( Line Of Code )

Thanks for your request but the LOC will all be in my head NFS or PU.

Thanks

[Sugar Bear]

Are you referring to water entering the tap hole if your tapping in the rain? Prior to inserting the tap? Or effects of water getting in after pulling taps? Or possibly water/rain seeping around the tap?

Water seeping around the tap. No matter how perfect we think or know the seal is.

[Cjadamec]

"OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one."

I could understand your position that you feel the tap is not sealed into the tree nearly as well as we are saying it is. Having spent years working as an engineer on ships and in the marine engineering industry I am fully well aware at how well water can find its way into places you don't want it to.

However there is a ton of real world data, collected by university research centers and backyard tappers, that support the idea that the tap forms and excellent seal into the tree. The simple fact that a 25-27" vacuum is achievable with no mechanical pumps or aids stands testament to how well the taphole is sealed. The smallest air leak into a 3/16 gravity tubing system will drastically lower the vacuum in the tubing. A water molecule is an order of magnitude larger than an air molecule. If we aren't getting air sucked into the tubing around the taphole we sure as heck aren't getting water in either.

Nobody here is trying to outsmart you, we are only presenting you with data collected via countless hours in the woods. Also we aren't dealing with dry or green wood, we are dealing with living trees actively responding to the hole that was just drilled into them. There is a huge difference between living wood in a tree trunk and cut down dead wood.

[Sugar Bear]

[I]"OK ...

If we aren't getting air sucked into the tubing around the taphole we sure as heck aren't getting water in either.

Even if it is the "Perfect" tap are we certain of the above statement ?

BTW .... Green wood is my term for live living wood or freshly cut wood.

Won't Green wood, Dry Wood and or Living Wood all seal off oxygen well enough to form a substantial vacuum yet still transfer moisture from one position to another?

No I'm not trying to outsmart anyone either.

I'll need a good answer to that one.

[DrTimPerkins]

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with 2" of rain == "DON'T TAP YET"

VS

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with no rain == "TAP ANYWAY"

Not real complicated.
Just no evidence that anybody can come up with in order to support the LOC. ( Line Of Code )

There is no evidence that would suggest either tapping or holding off tapping based upon a forecast of rain would be either good or bad, mostly likely because it A) doesn't happen (water moving into taphole) at all or, at best, very much, or B) that it has any significant effect. Thus including a line of code would be superfluous.

[DrTimPerkins]

Even if it is the "Perfect" tap are we certain of the above statement ?

BTW .... Green wood is my term for live living wood or freshly cut wood.

Won't Green wood, Dry Wood and or Living Wood all seal off oxygen well enough to form a substantial vacuum yet still transfer moisture from one position to another?

No I'm not trying to outsmart anyone either.

I'll need a good answer to that one.

There is extraordinarily little water movement through the bark. If there were, vessels that formed in the outer rings would cavitate and be rendered non-functional. As far as leaks from vacuum tubing....if spouts are tapped properly, they are essentially vacuum tight (that is the point after all). There is no benefit to the tree, and considerable detriment, in allowing any substantial amount of water to move from the xylem (wood) to the outside. Note that this is less true at the twig level where there are lenticels that can allow some gas/vapor exchange with the atmosphere.

The gases that appear in tubing (along with sap) are coming directly from the tree itself as a result of respiration and are enriched in CO2. The amount of gas produced is dependent upon the temperature of the wood. Air molecules are way smaller than water molecules.

[Sugar Bear]

Thanks for your informative answers.

I wont factor foretasted heavy warm rain into my "Time to Tap" algorithm.

[Ed R]

Here is my small time tappers algorithm, look for a forecast with two days in a row when the night time lows are in the mid to low 20s and the day time highs reach 40 degrees and it's above freezing by 11 am, then its time to think about tapping. I like to tap in the frozen wood in the morning and have everything tapped by the 10 to 11 am warm up. If you have under 100 taps it should be doable, I do it every year on my hobby operation. Sap never runs better than the first day you tap, why waste it by tapping on a marginal day if your a hobbiest. This type of weather "usually" only happens when it's clear.

[Sugarmaker]

Humm,
Sugar Bear,

I was asking the question about the quantity of syrup you have made to get a idea of your maple background. FYI, I generally make 100 to 150 gallons per year which is not much syrup. Just a small producer interested in learning and mentoring.

Also:
Your quote" "I am sure you have both made more syrup and are smarter then me. I am on this website trying to pic the brains of people smarter then me.

OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one."

Sounds like with your background you already have the answers about of water infiltration?

What do you really want from the folks on the Trader?
BTW I never worry about how smart a person is to get ideas about something. Ideas can come from anyone!

Looks like we might tap next Tuesday.

Regards,
Chris