Cleaning 3/16ths lines after the season

[buckeye gold]

On similar note...does anyone have a way of fixing those little nicks from squirrel bites that barely leak? I just hate cutting a line off and putting in a coupler for a little tiny nick. Are there any food grade sealers you could spray on or paint on?

[johnallin]

JohnAllin,
How many seasons have you been using this method, and have you noticed the drop off in sap production after year 1 that many report with 3/16ths.

Two seasons now. It’s difficult to chart a drop off in sap, as last year was a record- for us anyway- with sap collection. Was it the year? or the Canadian IPA Technique?
The acceptance of IPA in the States is a pen stroke away...and a grey area for sure.

[SeanD]

Wait. This is turning things upside for me. I thought the research on cleaning lines concluded that nothing is better than doing nothing. A 30-minute soak in 400 ppm bleach returns drops and spouts to their original, year 1 production?

[minehart gap]

I recently learned that IPA is considered a pesticide.

My rational tells me that is why it does so well at reducing bacteria, it actually may kill some bacteria.

Another thought on this, just because IPA is considered illegal to use for food production, and it is a pesticide, wouldn't a different already approved pesticide do about the same thing?

In PA, my sanatarian is telling me that I must sanatize my lines. Most of the non-organic sanatizers are pesticide. I'm going to try, partly because I have to but I'm going to hope for the best.

[maple flats]

Research shows that doing nothing is practiced by some, but it is hardly the best way. While cleanliness of the the drops, including taps and tees are very important, the lateral much less so and the mains have almost no bearing.
I attended Dr Tim Perkins' seminar yesterday on tubing sanitation. I will not even try to state all of the research findings but cleaning the drops is very important. It did not show that cleaning a drop brought it back to year 1 results however. A new tap/drop and tee did bring it back. Then the next best was a new CV/on a used drop. With that production falls in yr 2 and 3 but that was shown to be the most profitable. Then in year 4, a new drop/tap and tee. In their testing, the year they use a new drop and tee they do not use CV, just a new plain tap. The CV''s were used in yrs 2 & 3.
Soon his test results may be up on the UVM website. There is a lot more info when that goes up.
His presentation in regards to sanitation focused on profits (the added sap vs the cost to do it.)
The cleaning that Art Kreuger does in his video did not say it will bring the drop back to new, he is testing to see how well it does. He has not yet gone thru a season using that method.
Art, however is one of the early ones who has used the 3/16 method, he may have more years experience using it than anyone else except maybe Tim Wilmot, who pioneered the idea.
In 3/16 even more than with 5/16 sanitation has proven to be critical. Year 1 is real good, 2 loses production and 3 even more. A 3 yr rotation for taps, drops and tees is indicated. Years 2 and 3 need to be sanitized to get good results.

[minehart gap]

Dave, I attended that seminar as well. Wasn't nearly all of the data presented with regards to 5/16" tubing and Dr Tim said more research is needed on 3/16" tubing but that they were not the same in regards to the cleaning aspect?

[DrTimPerkins]

Traveling so reply will be brief.

IPA is illegal in US. It falls under pesticide laws and is thus regulated by the EPA (and not, as might think, the USDA). Trying to read the laws and interpret them is difficult, however we have confirmation that IPA is illegal. If you use it you risk having your syrup declared contaminated with an illegal pesticide and seized. You would have to prove it was safe (better have good lawyers and deep pockets). Being “almost approved” is like being “almost pregnant.”

We understand sanitation in 5/16” tubing systems very well and there are several good references for that. Replacing drop lines is best for great yields, but too costly to do each year, so a 3-yr rotation is generally recommended, with new spouts each year. In terms of net profit achieved, 10+ yrs of research at UVM and Cornell show that using new CVs each year or bleach cleaning (with a long contact time, 5-10 min minimum, followed by rinsing or letting first flow of sap run on ground) gives the best result. Unfortunately normal bleach attracts squirrels, so we studied and suggest the use of calcium- weed bleach (no guarantees you won’t have squirrel issues, but hopefully less). New spouts alone provide about 1/4-1/3 the benefit of a CV. Although there is far less research, silver spouts over a 3-yr cycle seem to provide about 1/2+ the benefit of a CV (in net profit terms). Sucking sanitizer through lines under vacuum doesn’t provide enough contact time to be effective.

3/16” systems are different. Besides the sanitation issues, they also appear to suffer from progressive clogging problems. Thus we think flushing with sanitizer will be required to maintain good performance over several years in addition to normal sanitation practices. More research is needed and is planned for 2019 by both UVM and Cornell.

As I said, I am traveling and will be unable to reply to additional comments or questions for about a week.

[johnallin]

Traveling so reply will be brief.

IPA is illegal in US. It falls under pesticide laws and is thus regulated by the EPA (and not, as might think, the USDA). If you use it you risk having your syrup declared contaminated with an illegal pesticide and seized. You would have to prove it was safe (better have good lawyers and deep pockets).

Not to be contrary, and with all due respect, but how is Canadian Syrup allowed to be sold in the States?
Is it certified that no IPA was used in the process of making it? Again with respect to Dr Tim, it is puzzling to me. After all, it’s approved to be used as a topical antiseptic and sanitizer on cuts and abrasions on the human body. And who knows more about syrup production than our neighbors up North?

[DrTimPerkins]

Not to be contrary, and with all due respect, but how is Canadian Syrup allowed to be sold in the States?
Is it certified that no IPA was used in the process of making it? ?

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.

We also use bandaids on our cuts. Doesn’t mean we want them in our syrup.

You may argue about it all you like, but using IPA in the US is currently illegal. Give it a try and find out how far any of those arguments get you with the EPA. Best of luck. If you are that confident about it, call the Ohio Dept of Ag and Ohio Dept of Health and argue with them. I bet you will lose.

[wnybassman]

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.

I am not sure that is a great analogy.

If the US is concerned about anything harmful from IPA being in the end product, but that same something harmful may end up in the Canadian end product, why is their end product allowed here in the states?

I guess if we have certain standards to live by, why do we import stuff that doesn't meet those same standards? Wouldn't that designate a warning label?

I am not really arguing the point, just putting it in different words. I just rinse with plain water anyway