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Thread: I know it's early :)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    35

    Default I know it's early :)

    But, I am already excited for my second year. I went up through my mountainside yesterday and was trying to get an idea of how and what I would do this year. Late November early December depending on the weather, I am going to tap a few walnut trees again and make some syrup. I started to last year, but the sugar content was not good enough - at least I thought (.5%), but regardless this year, I will make some.

    I have three large maples trees that are close to my house, the sun exposure is excellent, and they produced 95% of the same I boiled last year (around 75-80 gallons).

    Up my mountainside, where gravity lines would work well due to the slope, the tree's there did quite poor. There are some monster maples up there, but I barely got anything out of them. Most of them I had two taps in, and I tried to strategically place the taps where the best sunlight exposure would be (but given they are on a mountainside, there isn't great sun exposure). I taped 15 trees up there and barely got anything. I keep wondering if I did something wrong (maybe I didn't put the tap high enough, or maybe I just really had an unlucky position on the tap, etc). I want to get more sap this year, and I have lost one of the maple trees near my house due to it splitting in half (it was in poor shape when we purchased our property), so now I want those trees to produce more than ever.

    I am thinking about trying to run gravity lines from the very top of my mountainside to a much more manageable access spot. When I get off work, towards winter time, it is difficult to check those lines before it is pitch dark. I have seen a few videos and done a little bit of reading on how this is done. Does anyone have any resources that would be beneficial for someone pretty green? I only used food-grade buckets last year beside the trees.

    Appreciate any thoughts, or advise!
    -Gabriel

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,544

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    Use the 3/16 line with 5/16" taps and drops. Don't try to focus on the sunny side. Since you should tap all sides of a tree within a given time period, if you tap all on the sunny side one year then at some point you would need to tap all on the least sunny side. If you go on the 3/16" laterals you shoud tap about 1/4 on the north face, 1/4 on the east face, 1/4 on the south and 1/4 on the west. While you do not do it using a compass just as you work the hill, do randomly spread the tapping orientation using all sides. Using the gravity vacuum of a 3/16 lateral you should tap 1 side (or 2 on trees over about 20" DBH) this year using all orientations but trees with 2 taps should be on opposite sides of the tree. Then next year tap at about 180 from the 1 tap trees and 90 degrees from the 2 tap from the previous year. With vacuum (the 3/16 with good drop in elevation gives you good vacuum) I never put in more than 2 taps, on buckets I used to do 3 on a tree that was over 25" DBH. In fact I have very few 2 tap trees because of the vacuum even though I have about maybe 5% of my trees well over 20" DBH.
    That all being said, fall tapping will make some syrup but not much compared to the late winter/spring sap season.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Thank you for the reply maple flats,

    I have so many questions, so I will try and keep them simple.

    Are you saying use 3/16 mainline with 5/16 taps and drops? This kind of throws me off, but I will be sure that is what you were saying first.

    From my reading, it seemed best to use 3/16 taps/lateral lines, and then a 5/16 mainline. Given that this is all gravity, I am curious to learn how you clean the mainline and what you do with it after the season is over?

    When you say that you have very few trees with two taps on the vacuum, why is that? On a gravity system, is sap production not increased as much with more taps vs a bucket system?

    Thanks again,

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
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    11,544

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    No, the other way around. Make the taps and drop lines in 5/16 (less sap gets pulled back into the tap hole just before freeze up because the gasses pass the sap. Then use a T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 out the side for the drop line. Then in the 3/16 lateral line, the sap does not pass the gasses so you will see sap/air(really carbon dioxide gas) sap/gas/sap gas etc. Since the sap does not pass the gasses gravity creates a vacuum from the pull of the sap flowing downhill. If the drop is long enough that the sap portion of the sap/gas march is near 30', then you will get the max. possible vacuum for your location which will depend on your elevation and the barometric pressure that day.
    To clean it after the season first just pull the top tap and let the lateral drain, you can also flush it with good clean water from the top.
    On mine I run mechanical vacuum even on my 3/16 laterals. When my season is done I pull the last tap on each lateral and then I run the vacuum to dry the lines out. I have several mains, some 3/4" but most 1" that my laterals run into, each has a valve at the beginning on the main. When drying the laterals I run just 1 main at a time for better air flow to dry the line. As each line looks dry, I plug the taps until only a few taps remain open, then I open the next main line valve. After that first lateral is fully dry I close that valve. Some laterals only take 2 hrs to dry others might take a whole day. Using gravity vacuum with the 3/16 laterals you could be drying all at the same time because each has it's own vacuum until the column of sap is gone. Then try to put some water in at the top to flush. For that some use a dedicated tank sprayer, one that has never had anything except good clean water in it. Fill it and carry the sprayer to the top of the hill, pump it up and go to work. On a smaller scale you could get a few sprayer bottles at the $ store, fill them with clean water and use them to pump enough water into the top tap to initiate flow and let it work it's way down. You may want to repeat after a minute or 2.
    Another idea, you could use a 2 gal picnic jug, filled with water and make up somthing to add to the dispensor spout that you can push the top tap into or onto and let the water run for 6-10 seconds. Then move on to the next lateral.
    In case you don't know, a lateral is the line going from tree to tree, a drop connects the tap to the lateral using a Tee.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    35

    Default

    For the T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16, is that almost impossible to attach to a lateral line without a two-handed tool?

    If I were taping only 20-30 trees on a mountainside, would it be possible/effective to just use 3/16 lines for what would be the lateral, and mainline?

    Thanks for the great ideas/clarification.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by netsplitter View Post
    For the T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16, is that almost impossible to attach to a lateral line without a two-handed tool?

    If I were taping only 20-30 trees on a mountainside, would it be possible/effective to just use 3/16 lines for what would be the lateral, and mainline?

    Thanks for the great ideas/clarification.
    I would just run one 3/16 the whole way with that many taps. There are several ways to add in the drops on the line. One way would be to string up your 3/16 from start to finish and tighten it up and then mark where your drops will go with a marker. Loosen it up and add in your drops and then tighten it up again. Remember that when you add in your drop it lengthens the line some if you did not cut a small piece out to compensate for it. If you end up with not taking enough out and your drops are past the trees a little on part of the line, you can side tie parts to make them line up better. A side tie is find a tree 90 degrees from you line and pulling it towards the tree with some rope or twine. This will take up some of the slack.
    Smoky Lake 2x6 dropflu pans and hoods on homemade arch
    Smoky Lake 6 gallon water jacked bottler
    Concentric Exhaust
    250 Deer Run RO
    325 taps

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Sapper View Post
    I would just run one 3/16 the whole way with that many taps. There are several ways to add in the drops on the line. One way would be to string up your 3/16 from start to finish and tighten it up and then mark where your drops will go with a marker. Loosen it up and add in your drops and then tighten it up again. Remember that when you add in your drop it lengthens the line some if you did not cut a small piece out to compensate for it. If you end up with not taking enough out and your drops are past the trees a little on part of the line, you can side tie parts to make them line up better. A side tie is find a tree 90 degrees from you line and pulling it towards the tree with some rope or twine. This will take up some of the slack.
    Thank you, super sapper,

    This may be a very dumb question, but when you say tighten - I am imagining tieing the 3/16 tubing around the highest elevation tree (almost in a knot), then zig-zagging downwards in elevation until I get to my last tree/storage container. I assume there is a better way to tighten this, are there some kind of clips to use on each end?

    The 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 T's, if you were running two drops/taps on a tree to the lateral line, would you just use two 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 T's to tie in?

    Also - question for anyone regarding pressure gauges. Do most people who use these on gravity lines with guages simply use an additonal T to add the guage permanently to the line?
    Last edited by netsplitter; 10-02-2018 at 10:25 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,544

    Default

    No, the top tree (highest) gets an end line fitting of which depending on which company's products you go with can be in many different forms. Then to connect the Tees on that scale I suggest you run the lateral from top to bottom, weaving abck and forth to go past or turn a corner touching every maple, pulling the 3/16 rather snug as you go. Then at the collection container find a way to use a hook connector and from that add a length of additional tubing to actually enter your collection tank. Then use 2 screw clamps with a 18-24" length of light weight rope or cord tying them together just to hold the loose line ends where you won't lose them. Then where you want to add the Tee, cut the line. Many people can push most brands of 3/16 tubing onto the fitting by hand, if you can't just carry a thermos full of clean hot water. Dip the end into the water for a few seconds and then push it on. If you need more help, mix 50/50 glycerine (available at a pharmacy) and water. That mix is used with a "hot end system" for connecting fittings but at your scale the hot end system would not be practical. Another lighter weight method to hold the loose ends is available from Bascom and likely most others. It consists of a braqided string about a stout as a good shoe lace, and 2 or 3 tubing holders. In the tubing holders there are 1 or 2 slots in each, for 3/16" tubing or 5/16 tubing or both. If memory serves me they cost about $10-12. You could also make a set out of scraps of wood and a shoe lace.
    The main thing is just that you can set up a loose spot in the tubing for ease of working and then just unhook them and move to the next tree. I always make my drops at home at the kitchen table. Make in your case, 1 for the end tree, and then as many as you will need for the rest. Originally I made my drops all 28", then I went to 30", then 32" and now I make them at 36". I also carry extra 5/16 tubing with me (all of my 3/16 gets drop of 5/16 in case I run into a situation where I want an even longer drop. In that case to longer one is made at the tree. You want the drops longer than you might think just because in subsequent years you will be tapping all around the tree. I change all drops every 3 years, but the laterals are used a lot longer. Then I change a lateral when it has an issue.
    Going back to the 2 clamps and a string, you can clamp (use a C clamp) and just tighten it on the tubing, the tubing can be fully crushed without damage.
    For tubing brands the only brand I've ever used that did not stretch is Leader, I've use 3 or 4 others and they are somewhat elastic. That helps hold tension from tree to tree. As you run your lateral line also go in a slight zig zag pattern incorporating non maples too, to help hold the line up.
    For vacuum gauges, I use them on about 1/3 of my lines, just by running a Tee in the drop and a length of tubing with the gauge on it, but likely few if any at your size operation use a vacuum gauge. They just help you see differences in laterals but in reality, with 3/16, and a drop in elevation you will have vacuum, and you can watch the sap/air/sap march downhill.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Bruceton Mills, WV
    Posts
    66

    Default

    For fixing the bottom end to the tank, you can use hollow core rope. Then feed about 12 to 18 inches of the 3/16 tubing through the center of the rope, like a finger trap. You can then tighten this as needed I know there are some pictures of this on the trader somewhere.

    Keith
    2018: 684 taps: 525-3/16" Gr.,159-3/16" Hybrid; Mountain Maple Super Sap Sucker, CDL 600 RO - 131 gal.; retired from WVU in May
    2017: 439 Taps - 3/16" Gravity, Goulds 18GBS15, CDL 2X6 Drop Flue, Wes Fab 7" SB Filter Press, Smokey Lake WJ Bottler - 90 gal.
    2016: 258 Taps - 3/16" Gravity, Honda WX15, NGMP 2X6 Flat Pan, Deer Run 125 RO - 68 gal.
    2015: 20 Taps - Jugs, Turkey Fryer and 2-Burner Stove - 2.5 gal.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,080

    Default

    I also use the hollow core rope at the end tree and just put my gauge or end tap on the end of the 3/16. You will need a 3/16 X 5/16 connector if you run the 5/16 drops on the rest.
    Smoky Lake 2x6 dropflu pans and hoods on homemade arch
    Smoky Lake 6 gallon water jacked bottler
    Concentric Exhaust
    250 Deer Run RO
    325 taps

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