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Thread: Going way over draw temp

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    Central new york
    Posts
    311

    Default Going way over draw temp

    So we started boiling concentrate this year on or 2x8, and no matter what I did for adjustments, I just couldn't find a sweet spot where the temp wouldn't rise 3 or 4 degrees in the middle of the draw, we have AOF/AUF and burn all kiln dried hardwood, split to the proper size, we average around 85 gph, full hoods and preheated, and a bubbler, stack temp holds 900-1000. I'm wondering if I need to cut down the auf and not run it so hard with concentrate?
    A&A 2x8 raised flue with hoods and preheater AOF/AUF
    8x12 kitchen
    H20 7.5 1200 Econox for 2018
    H2O 10" filter press half bank
    1600+ on 3/16 for 2018

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    8,666

    Default

    Does it do that only on the first draw after you reverse flow or all of the time?
    Dave Klish about 1320 taps in '15, down to about 700 in '16, up to 1000 for 2019?
    2012 Mahindra 36 HP 4x4/ loader/cab/heat/AC:-)
    added a gooseneck equipment trailer and F350 to tow it to haul more sap
    3x8 raised flue evaporator
    250 GPH converted to electric, RO by Ray Gingerich
    6.32 KW solar system, 1.48KW is battery backed up, all net metered
    http://s1041.photobucket.com/albums/...anssugarhouse/
    website: www.cnymaple.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    UVM Proctor Maple Research Center, Underhill Ctr, VT
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    4,127

    Default

    Where are you placing the temperature probe? Have you tried moving it further back in the pan? Is the last partition noticeably cooler (less rapid boil)? When you switch sides, does the problem change from side-to-side?

    With our former evaporator (Leader 3' x 10') boiling 15-17% concentrate, on the first draw of a boil or after switching sides we would have to start drawing off about 2.5 deg F cold, and it would rise about 2.5 deg F over the set temp, and make about 10 gal of syrup in that first draw.

    On the new Lapierre Volcano 2000 4' x 12' boiling high concentrate, we start drawing off 3.5-4 deg F early, and it can rise to over 10 deg F above syrup on the first draw. The front (syrup) pan on this rig is 4' x 8', and we're running 2" deep, so there a lot of syrup in there. We end up with about 25 gal in the first drawoff. Can get a little exciting, but with the Riello burner you can adjust the heat anywhere from 20-100%, so we'll dial it back a little until after the first draw is done. Once that is over, as long as you don't change anything else, with the modulating drawoff it just runs almost perfectly smoothly for hours. Switching sides can be equally exciting, but we find we haven't had to switch sides very often these past few years.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 06-13-2018 at 06:36 AM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonport Wisc
    Posts
    5,193

    Default

    I can sympathize with the out of control fright train coming into Union station. On my rig it was to much heat with a too little draw off valve and not knowing that I was drawing off at the coolest part of the finish pans. You mentioned concentrate but what percent because going from 2 to 4% was crazy for me the first time then 4-8% made me do some changing of the rig BUT 22% took some real changes. The problem people get into is they try and do to many changes without really knowing what is the main cause. You want to really feel like burning the shack down is have a bad temperature probe that fluctuates back and forth never settling down to a constant temp. I made my best syrup once I took the time to calibrate ALL my probes and then trusted them. That includes calibrating the PID to the probe.

    Once I realized I was making over density syrup in my first channel of the first finish pan nearest the flue pan and then it ran thru the other 3 to the undersized draw off then I made the big change. OH YEA all the time I was running my oil gun on high fire............What a dumb a$$ I was. Just dont make 5 changes all at once because you will never know what was the biggest contributor.
    3X10 Lapiere Waterloo small/CDL raised flue with oil fired homemade steam hood
    1700 taps all on vacuum thru sap ladders
    Smoky Lake auto draw off
    Custom 2X4 finish pan by 3rdgen
    Kubota BX 2370 tractor and Polaris ATV
    CDL Airtech L63
    CDL remote vacuum system sensing.
    2 double Bernard releasers
    Westfab 7" short bank
    More dang tanks and pumps than I can remember
    Yellow dog made from parts named Roxy

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New Hartford, N.Y.
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    1,907

    Default

    Chuck,

    What did you "change" when you had over density in the channel next to the flue pan? Was it just a draw off change or did you change the plumbing so that channel became the last (finish) channel. I have considered doing that with mine since that channel is over/closer to the hottest part of the firebox. The front channel is cooler being on the "outside" so to speak and the repeated door openings to load wood doesn't help either.
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Bakersfield, VT
    Posts
    187

    Default

    Have had the same issues with spiking temp on draw. Few small changes seemed to have help. We boil 16 - 18%
    2 1/2" to 3" deep in the front pan
    start drawing a little early, a trickle to get it going, never open draw valve past half way. scoop over sap if needed.
    clean the front pan when it starts to act funny
    54 Acres bought in Sept 2010, hope for a lot of fun
    Kabota 3400 w/ bucket
    couple Husky chainsaws and a couple of Stihl
    Big dream
    2011 = 106 on gravity tubing, 100 bucket
    2012 =700 vaccuum 100 gravity 80 bucket's
    30" x 12' Vortex with Leader Revolution Max Raised pans
    2013 = 1200 vac, 200 gravity, 5 buckets, buying from 300 buckets, 500 vac
    Springtech RO 600 Deluxe
    2015= 1800 all vac @ home, buying sap from 1200.
    2017= 2200 all on vac. no longer buying sap

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonport Wisc
    Posts
    5,193

    Default

    Steve I have become a SS milk house pipeline whore I buy up all the fittings I can find. I have a assortment of all kinds of specialty fittings. I have a Lapiere waterloo small pan set that you can reverse but you have to switch out all the equipment from side to side. What I ended up doing with an assortment of 2" sanitary fittings and elbows is come out of the flue float box and skip past the 2 finish pan plumbing and into what used to be my draw off port. I then put the draw off plumbing on the channel next to the flue pan. That made it run like it should very predictable and steady. I also did away with the bypass plumbing and got my drawoff plumbing short and sweet. Once things settle down I can run it on high fire
    3X10 Lapiere Waterloo small/CDL raised flue with oil fired homemade steam hood
    1700 taps all on vacuum thru sap ladders
    Smoky Lake auto draw off
    Custom 2X4 finish pan by 3rdgen
    Kubota BX 2370 tractor and Polaris ATV
    CDL Airtech L63
    CDL remote vacuum system sensing.
    2 double Bernard releasers
    Westfab 7" short bank
    More dang tanks and pumps than I can remember
    Yellow dog made from parts named Roxy

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Merrill, Wi
    Posts
    320

    Default

    This is a common issue with our rig as well, when we are done for the day we drain the syrup pan (4x6) into our draw tank and clean the pan. From there we pump it back into the pan (this jacks up the gradient) so our 1st draw is like 30 gallons! The first time this occurred I about s#@! cause we were not prepared. But it was really cool to see that much syrup came off at once (we prefer to have the 1st draw come off a bit heavy). I'll put the hydrometer right in the draw tank and pull hot sap from the reverse flow valve to achieve the proper density and then send it through the filter press. That how we get around it (then play with the auto draw temp setting). The thing to remember is that syrup comes off the same way sap enters. Here is what our 1st draw tends to look like...

    https://www.facebook.com/northwoodsmaplefarm/videos/607994252868512/
    Last edited by Maple Man 85; 06-13-2018 at 05:39 PM.
    Maple Man 85
    Anthony & Rebecca Renken
    2017=200 taps
    2018=4000 taps (goal) 3000 taps (actual)
    2019=7000 taps (goal)
    30x45 Sugar House
    4x16 Leader Vortex
    www.northwoodsmaplefarm.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Central new york
    Posts
    311

    Default

    Yes this happens all the time, we are boiling 13-15%
    A&A 2x8 raised flue with hoods and preheater AOF/AUF
    8x12 kitchen
    H20 7.5 1200 Econox for 2018
    H2O 10" filter press half bank
    1600+ on 3/16 for 2018

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Potter County, PA
    Posts
    808

    Default

    I boil 18%. When I shut down, i keep one partition of near syrup from the front pan. When I start up i will add this to the draw off box just before the front pan starts to boil. As the next to last section nears syrup ( using a hydrometer) i will start a draw. From there, i will have a constant draw the entire boil from the bypass of my autodraw. The autodraw is set to 2 deg over syrup to keep things from getting out of control. When it is all blended in the drawoff tank, the highs and lows balance out.
    2008 4 buckets
    ~
    2016 1300 vac tubing
    18x24 sugar shack
    2x6 Grimm Lightning w/preheater on natural gas
    7" full bank press
    CDL 600 RO
    2000 Sonoma w/ 200gal tank
    2003 Duramax w/ 500 gal tank
    2 sap guzzling kids
    very patient wife!

    Same ol' addiction

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