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Thread: Does Using an RO change the flavor of the Syrup Produced?

  1. #1
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    Default Does Using an RO change the flavor of the Syrup Produced?

    Sorry if this is a recycled post. I did a search and haven't come up with an answer to my question...so here goes:

    I bought an RO this year and start using it half way through the season. Previous to using the RO my wife loved my syrup. Now, she says the flavor has changed and doesn't like it as much (...or maybe at all)

    The RO was not new and the membrane was stored in a solution of Meta-Bisulfate. I rinsed the membrane a lot before using it. At least 50 gallons, maybe more.

    My theory is that the sugars in the sap don't stay in the arch nearly as long (6-8% concentrate) and are not caramelizing as much. I went from 3hrs per gallon to producing 1.25 gallons per hour using the RO. The syrup produced is definitely lighter with less robust of a flavor.

    I can see what she means in that the flavor has changed, but I don't think it tastes bad, just different.

    Thanks for your feedback.

  2. #2
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    It sounds to me as if you did not put enough water through the membrane when rinsing. we put 1000 gallons through our new ones this spring before we we used them for sap. but they also were 8 inch membranes. i would recommend washing and rinsing with the recommended amount of water. In previous posts of this there is no significant change in your syrup taste.

  3. #3
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    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Effects%20o...erg%202015.pdf

    No.

    But taste is so subjective and we will convince ourselves something tastes different when we know it was produced in a different way. So does it really taste difference to you and her? Yes. But if you do a scientific study like the one attached you will find no difference.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that you've had the RO only for one season and season to season variation could be causing your perceived difference in taste. Or another factor could be changing things.

  4. #4
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    How many gallons an hour RO did you get. If it was stored in a preservative, you need to run a soap wash then a cold permeate rinse for the same amount as the RO does in an hour. If it is a 250 GPH, use 250 gal of permeate. When you have no permeate yet, use soft well water or municipal water, but let it set vented for 2-3 days to vapor off the chlorine.
    If it was not stored in a preservative it may have funky all thru it, you might need a new membrane.
    An RO if run according to manufactures instructions an cleaned properly will not change the taste.
    What make RO is it? What size?
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  5. #5
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    The RO I have is made by Memtek. It was modified, at some point, from a 21" membrane to a 4x40" membrane. It passes 100gph through the membrane at 500psi.

    I was not told I had to wash the membrane first, just rinse it, so hopefully that is not the source of issue. I've put about 1500gal of sap through it this year and the taste didn't change over time. I rinse the membrane with about 50gal of permeate after each run. I'm new to the RO world, but I would think if the membrane had residual storage solution in it, that taste would fade over time.

    The meta-bisulfate solution it was stored in was very apparent when I opened the tube, so I doubt there is any funky stuff that was growing on the membrane. I do have soft well water, so I can definitely do an extended rinse on the membrane. But unfortunately my season is over, so I don't think there's much testing I can do this year. I should probably run a few hundred gallons of straight well water through it and see if the concentrate or permeate lines produce any off-flavors.

    There definitely is a difference in taste. I'm not going to say it is a bad taste, just different from what we produced prior to introducing the RO.

    Any other suggestions?

  6. #6
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    I feel like this topic was discussed from about every angle in another thread...deja vu I guess.

    I know syrup flavor can change from season to season and even during the season. Last year we made some of the best tasting syrup I've ever had but this year it is different. The approach I would take is to look at all the variables. Since you started the year without the RO, does that syrup get the stamp of approval but syrup after that does not? Like others have mentioned, were the membranes properly cleaned? I've read several posts from producers who said that affected their flavor.

    Personally, after having read the studies on the matter I would look at factors outside of the RO itself.
    About 300 taps
    2'x6' air tight arch
    Semi complete 12'x24' sugarhouse in Somers, CT
    My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/CapturedNature
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    I feel like this topic was discussed from about every angle in another thread...deja vu I guess.
    Sorry for re-hashing an old topic...I tried finding other threads that spoke to this topic, but didn't find what I was looking for. If you know the link to the thread you referenced in your replay, please share it. Thanks.

    I know this season's sugar content has been lower than last year. My wife thinks the non-RO syrup from earlier this year tastes better. I know that is very subjective. Just trying to get a plausible explanation and possibly find out a cause for off-flavors in case I'm inducing some.

    Thanks again for the feedback.

  8. #8
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    The off taste is from an issue with the membrane, a clean membrane does not affect the taste. I suggest you contact MES, they will help you get the membrane right, they are good folks and easy to work with. When you run the 50 gal of permeate thru after running the RO, how do you have the flows set? On my RO I need to balance the flows so both flow meters are essentially equal in GPM. Watch the scales, if they are not the same, you want equal concentrate and permeate flow. With both meters using the same scale that is easy, but some RO's have a different flow meter on each with the concentrate a finer scale and the permeate a more course scale. At any rate, when flushing with permeate run2 time, once for 5-6 minutes pushing the sweet into the head tank to boil, then flush for 10 minutes minimum on recirculate, sending both the concentrate flow and the permeate flow back to the wash tank. At that point, do what MES tells you, my RO is bigger but a more basic RO, so they may not be cleaned the same.
    One thing mine requires at first of season, is that I run a cold water flush for at least 30 minutes, sending both flows to drain, then I fill the wash tank with clean hot water (113F max) add soap (use what MES says) and then do a 10-15 minutes wash cycle, followed by a cold rinse for 10 minutes. Then I change to pre-filter and it is ready to go.
    If you want send me your email to: dave@cnymaple.com and I'll send you a copy of my manual and my proceedure. You must however realize the our RO's are made by different companies and the membranes are not the same. While my method works extremely well on my RO, it may not be right for your RO. I think the main point I finally ended up using in cleaning my membranes is that, except for the time prescribed to push the sweet to the head tank, I extend all other times. If the manual says 10 minutes on a step, I do 15 sometimes 20, then on mine after the wash cycle it says to run a cold permeate rinse for 5 minutes, I usually do 10-20 minutes. Then be sure to change the pre-filter.
    I do not do a daily acid wash or soap wash, I just clean in season with permeate, heated to 113F in the wash cycle followed by a old permeate rinse for 10 minutes or more. If MES tells you otherwise, you will be smart to follow their instructions.
    Good luck, and do not give up on the RO.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #9
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    Apr 2014
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    Thanks Dave. The instructions for my RO have me close both valves, for concentrate and permeate, when doing the rinse. So the flow meters are out of the flow path during the rinse. I do extend the times that my manual says for doing the rinse, but certainly I could extend them more.

    My issue with going back to the mfg. is that the original membrane is no longer installed. I'm not sure who did the mod from 21" to 40" membranes, so I'm sort of on my own as to what to do. I hate to "start over" with a new membrane, given the cost, but maybe that's my best option to make sure the membrane isn't the cause.

  10. #10
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    I believe Dave has the correct answers. The membranes should have been washed and rinsed or better rinsed, washed, and then rinsed again. We have a 250. We use about 100 gallons for the first rinse. Wash. Then rinse with the other 150. We do a wash cycle at the beginning of each year and try to have an longer rinse cycle at the end of the year prior to the storage solution. Our membranes are tested by CDL and they are above 100%.

    You maybe in the market for new membranes.

    Mike
    Tapping since 1985 (four generations back to early to mid 1900s). 200-250 taps on buckets and then tubing in the mid 90s. 2013- 275 taps w/sap puller 25 gal. 2014-295 taps w/sap puller 55 ga. (re-tapped to vacuum theory) 2015-330 taps full vac. 65 gal, 2016-400 taps 105 gal, 2017-400 taps 95 gal. 2018-additional 800' mainline and maybe 400 new taps for a total near 800 taps. 2x6 Leader WSE (last year on it) supported by a 250 gph RO.

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