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Thread: R/O Questions

  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New Hartford, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,907

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    Chuck,

    You pretty much have to have the agitator operating if you want the tank to cool correctly- meaning evenly. Without "stirring", ice forms on the inside of the tank because the sap close to the tank bottom/walls is absorbing all the cold. So the bottom sap would be ice cold and frozen solid and the sap at the top of the tank is still whatever temp. it was when it started- maybe slightly cooler from conduction but not much. Certainly not enough to safely hold the sap/concentrate.


    Like Dr. Tim said, these tanks don't work hard or long at all because they are only cooling the already 'cool' liquid down a little bit. They were designed to chill 100 degree cow milk down to thirty- something degrees, hold it at that temp. and do it on a 100 degree day in July. Mine does not run very long and it does not need to run often. And since it's well insulated it will hold sap at whatever temp. you set your tank to even if it's in the teens or single digits in the sugarhouse! Electric usage for keeping sap cool is next to nothing compared to farm use.

    Obviously my operation is smaller than Dr. Tim's at the PMRC and I have no numbers to post about man hours saved, etc., etc., but Dr. Tim's "we can RO for a few days" is the game-changing result for my father and I. We boil when we need to once we have enough and we no longer worry about losing it.

    Believe me, not worrying about that anymore will be life-changing.


    Steve
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New Hartford, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,907

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    Dr. Tim can type faster than me....Then again, probably everyone can type faster than me! Lol.

    Steve
    2014 Upgrades!: 24x40 sugarhouse & 30"x10' Lapierre welded pans, wood fired w/ forced draft, homemade hood & preheater
    400 taps- half on gravity 5/16, half on gravity 3/16
    Airablo R.O. machine - in the house basement!
    Ford F-350 4x4 sap gatherer
    An assortment of barrels, cage tanks & bulk tanks- with one operational for cooling/holding concentrate
    And a few puzzled neighbors...

    http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/t...uckethead1920/

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonport Wisc
    Posts
    5,309

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    Thanks Steve I can see the benefit from every system I have installed over the last 3 years and this has been one of my biggest struggles is timing everything out during big sap runs. the cleaning and collecting has always been my big frustrations. Having my concentrate tank outside will free up needed space in the RO room/kitchen.

    I see another post/membrane in my future. Want to get closer to 30% and wonder about extending my rig for my 3rd finish pan making it a 3 X 11.6 and calming the rig down a bit. with 3 day breaks between cooks I can take my time to install a better evap cleaning system.
    3X10 Lapiere Waterloo small/CDL raised flue with oil fired homemade steam hood
    1700 taps all on vacuum thru sap ladders
    Smoky Lake auto draw off
    Custom 2X4 finish pan by 3rdgen
    Kubota BX 2370 tractor and Polaris ATV
    CDL Airtech L63
    CDL remote vacuum system sensing.
    2 double Bernard releasers
    Westfab 7" short bank
    More dang tanks and pumps than I can remember
    Yellow dog made from parts named Roxy

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Potter County, PA
    Posts
    808

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    You wont want to extend your rig. You will want to add the 3rd front pan and make your flue pan shorter.
    2008 4 buckets
    ~
    2016 1300 vac tubing
    18x24 sugar shack
    2x6 Grimm Lightning w/preheater on natural gas
    7" full bank press
    CDL 600 RO
    2000 Sonoma w/ 200gal tank
    2003 Duramax w/ 500 gal tank
    2 sap guzzling kids
    very patient wife!

    Same ol' addiction

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonport Wisc
    Posts
    5,309

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    I just don't want the expense of finding a 5' 6" raised flue pan that matches my configuration. My flue pan came with 2" threaded ports in all corners and I have them plumbed with dairy pipeline to a central collection point for rapid dumping while cleaning. Right now my rig rocks and I hate to change anything because its not the weak link in my operation. I think the chiller is my next system and another post for quicker concentrating.
    3X10 Lapiere Waterloo small/CDL raised flue with oil fired homemade steam hood
    1700 taps all on vacuum thru sap ladders
    Smoky Lake auto draw off
    Custom 2X4 finish pan by 3rdgen
    Kubota BX 2370 tractor and Polaris ATV
    CDL Airtech L63
    CDL remote vacuum system sensing.
    2 double Bernard releasers
    Westfab 7" short bank
    More dang tanks and pumps than I can remember
    Yellow dog made from parts named Roxy

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    6

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    Even though a have small hobbyist operation (50 taps); I do share in the never ending conundrum of a)finding time to boil.........and b)sap spoilage. With a small 55-gal evaporator set-up (4 gals/hr. max) and some huge days when the sap is running; I ended up building a small RO this past Spring which worked great (2% to 8% sap in one pass). With concentrate spoilage in mind; I ended up doing boil after boil when I really didn't have enough time (Do we ever?). Not having the resources or size of operation to warrant a refrigerated bulk tank as Dr. Tim outlined; I'm wondering if burying a leg tank deep in a snow bank and storing concentrate there; would give me the few extra days needed to push the boiling out to the weekends when I have the time.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    8,776

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    If buried in snow, it should be OK for a day, maybe 2. I would not try for longer. At 8% you would want 30F to hold longer and depending on the temperature in the tank you might get 35+. Realize that one essential on cooling is the mixing to have a uniform temperature and that will not happen in the tank you describe. Secondly, plastic will not transfer the cold well to the concentrate.
    Dave Klish about 1320 taps in '15, down to about 700 in '16, up to 1000 for 2019?
    2012 Mahindra 36 HP 4x4/ loader/cab/heat/AC:-)
    added a gooseneck equipment trailer and F350 to tow it to haul more sap
    3x8 raised flue evaporator
    250 GPH converted to electric, RO by Ray Gingerich
    6.32 KW solar system, 1.48KW is battery backed up, all net metered
    http://s1041.photobucket.com/albums/...anssugarhouse/
    website: www.cnymaple.com

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jacksonport Wisc
    Posts
    5,309

    Default

    UB29 I love the process as much as the product so making systems to do the this sport is part of my passion. So I go camping and for fun I bring a coil of copper and a small circulator pump from a hot tub that was for the UV system. I carry a 30 gallon tank of water when I go. So I put the coil in the fire and circulate and within 1/2 he I have steam coming out of the tank. Now take the same system and use it for sap/concentrate and dig the coil into the snow bank and you can get the sap down to near freezing temps. Don't stop looking for the next few items that will propel you to the next level. Once word gets out that you need a tank you will have 3 of them.

    Bigger tank better storage more sap more syrup bigger evap more fun....................See how this works now get back in line and wait your turn.
    3X10 Lapiere Waterloo small/CDL raised flue with oil fired homemade steam hood
    1700 taps all on vacuum thru sap ladders
    Smoky Lake auto draw off
    Custom 2X4 finish pan by 3rdgen
    Kubota BX 2370 tractor and Polaris ATV
    CDL Airtech L63
    CDL remote vacuum system sensing.
    2 double Bernard releasers
    Westfab 7" short bank
    More dang tanks and pumps than I can remember
    Yellow dog made from parts named Roxy

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
    Posts
    813

    Default

    Sap will keep better than concentrate so it may be better to keep your sap cooled in the snow bank until you can concentrate and boil. That is how I set up this year with finally having an RO. If kept cool in a clean tank sap will last several days, it will make darker syrup than fresh but still good. The system worked well for me but it was an odd year with no runs over a gallon per tap.
    Smoky Lake 2x6 dropflu pans and hoods on homemade arch
    Smoky Lake 6 gallon water jacked bottler
    Concentric Exhaust
    250 Deer Run RO
    325 taps

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