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Thread: Getting to 18% with a 600

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Lawrence County Ohio
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    350

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    Yea sure and thanks for the 4 mix matched six packs of leftover HOLIDAY GIFT beer MMmmmmm coffee moca with Chickory my favorite.[/QUOTE]

    DILLY DILLY THE PIT OF MISERY!
    '12 15 jugs - Steam pans
    '17 125 3/16 - 18" x 72" drop flue on homemade arch
    '18 240 3/16 - Deer Run 125
    '19 450 3/16 - Converted RO to electric/added a membrane
    '20 600 3/16 - Maple Pro 2x6 Raised Flue, added AOF/AUF
    '21 570 3/16 - Built steam hood, Smoky Lake filter press
    '22 800 3/16 - Upgraded RO to 4 4x40
    '23 500 3/16 - Re-plumbed RO, new "Guzzler"
    '24 500 3/16 - Steam Away, DIY 8x40 RO

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Barrington, NH
    Posts
    2,762

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    Thanks for all the input.

    Haynes, I hear you…upgrade one thing and something else is affected. I had thought about setting another tank up, but was trying to avoid it. It means building a tank stand behind the sugarhouse, and then redoing the RO plumbing to make it work. Means relocating the H.P. blower for the arch too…not sure where I’d hide that.

    If I was to do it, I’d get another 5’x12’x3’ tank, so I’d have 1250 gal of permeate storage in the new tank…volumes there if I ever decide to upgrade the RO. I’d only want to upgrade the RO if I was processing say 2000+ gal most every boil, not only on big runs.
    Josh

    2009 - 370 on vac. & 16 buckets
    2010 - 377 on vac.
    2011 - 590 on vac.
    2012 - 620 on high vac., 170 buckets, 110 on gravity tubing
    2013 - 830 mine + 800-1000 others
    2014 - 870 mine + 800-1000 others
    2017 - 920 mine + 500-700 others
    2018 - 902 mine + 500-700 others
    2019 - 902 mine + 700 others
    2020 - 902 mine + ???? others
    Atlas Copco Pump
    2.5'x8' 802maple Special with Dallaire pans
    H2O Innovation 600gph RO
    Spring Harvest Website

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Washington, VT
    Posts
    138

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    We have a first pass tank and a head tank. The first pass comes up to 5-6% and then 15-16% to the head tank. I usually concentrate enough for 3 hours of boiling and as more sap flows in switch back and forth between the 1st pass tank and the head tank as needed. Its a plumbing maze with valves all over the place but am able to concentrate, boil, and fire the arch alone. No time for socializing!! The kink in the system is finding time to rinse the membrane when you still have sap to concentrate. We just put in 50ft of copper coil in the steam stack and hope to have warm permeate to rinse with. This will hopefully reduce the rinse times. Best to you all. Jim
    3x8 Algier Evaporator. 600 gph Lapierre RO. 10" Filter press. We buy sap.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    poultney vermont
    Posts
    870

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maplewalnut View Post
    Meadster- do you have problems with your membrane fouling cranking it down that low to start? What membrane do you have if I may ask?

    Thanks
    Mike
    I crank mine down to 11/2 sometime 11/4....my permeate flow is usually around 6-7.5and usually rrsts on 6 after 6-8 hrs of ro-ing. They say as long as you stay under 10percent fouling should not be an issue as long as you have a good wash system in place, I wash at a phone of 11.5. this is with a mes2 membrane and I have to say the performance doesn't drop much, but I wash every day....
    18x30 sugarshack
    5100 taps high vac
    3x10 inferno with steampan
    7'' wes fab filter press
    10'' cdl air filter press
    D&G 3 post reverse osmosis w/recirculation

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Potter County, PA
    Posts
    815

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    With being short a tank for proper 2 pass, can you single pass to your headtank and then dump that back to your sap tank to push through the second time?
    2008 4 buckets
    ~
    2016 1300 vac tubing
    18x24 sugar shack
    2x6 Grimm Lightning w/preheater on natural gas
    7" full bank press
    CDL 600 RO
    2000 Sonoma w/ 200gal tank
    2003 Duramax w/ 500 gal tank
    2 sap guzzling kids
    very patient wife!

    Same ol' addiction

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rock Creek, NC
    Posts
    5,807

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    Quote Originally Posted by mellondome View Post
    With being short a tank for proper 2 pass, can you single pass to your headtank and then dump that back to your sap tank to push through the second time?
    Yes you can assuming that your sap tank is empty.
    Russ

    "Red Roof Maples" Where the term "boiling soda" was first introduced to the maple world!

    1930 Ford Model AA Doodlebug tractor
    A couple of Honda 4 wheelers
    Four chainsaws and no chickens!

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Barrington, NH
    Posts
    2,762

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    I can't get sap from my head tan back to the RO. Besides, it's only a 125 gal tank, so nowhere near the capacity I'd need.

    I forgot I have a 600+ gal bulk tank. Next season, I can set it up as a permeate tank, and start using my existing perm. tank as a concentrate tank.

    It seems like, most days this year are 1500 gal, with some higher than that. I need to figure out how much faster does the three tank setup make my process. How well does it work on 2000+ gal days...or more? Future plans are for expansion (isn't everyone's), but I like to maximize the use of the equipment (better return on investment) but at the same time, I work full-time, so time during maple season is a premium.

    To minimize boiling time and wood use, I'd like to be boiling 16-18% conc., which is more important on the bigger nights.

    Thanks for the input everyone!

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,544

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    While it is far from ideal, I currently have 3 sap tanks, a 415, a 545 and a 200 (which is for sale, when that sells I'll move a better 280 gal tank into it's place. Those 3 tanks are plumbed to a common hose to feed the RO. Then I go thru the RO and my permeate goes to a 1000 gal perm. tank while the concentrate goes to my head tank (only 150 gal). As I get enough in the head tank, I switch to recirculate thru the RO and back to the head tank, just by closing one valve as I open another. A first pass tank and then the head tank would work better, but I'd need to set up to do it, not likely in season. My first pass I run at 275 which gives about 1 gpm conc. and 3 gpm perm., when I switch to recirculate, I initally turn it back to about 225, but once the gauge evens out I adjust it for 240-250, which then gives me about 2 & 2 conc. and perm.. My RO does not do well over 14-15% or I end up needing to flush for 3-4 minutes with permeate.
    Thus, if I start with 2% I get about 8% on first pass, then I run on recirculate until it is anywhere from 10% up to a max of 14%. I do not try to get 15, but sometimes it happens. I'm thinking of adding another 250 RO and a small tank, like another 150 I use for a head tank. If I go that route I'll likely build my own RO, another 250 with 2 membranes, 4"x40.
    While I'm not as big as I was 5 yrs ago and I'm not likely to get that big again, I do take in sap on shares from other producers and when that happens I like to get all sap boiled the same day. My biggest ever day was 2500 gal but 800-1500 is far more common. On that 2500 gal day I had to turn away 2 loads that I could not handle because my tanks were full. Faster RO capabilities would help that, especially if my newest tank turns out to work, I am picking up the compressor for it this summer, then I'll get it tested. Being able to put 280 gal of 12-14% in a tank and cool it to 30F would be a huge advantage. Maybe even my 415 might work if I'm lucky and I could put the compressor on that instead.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Barrington, NH
    Posts
    2,762

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    Started thinking on this again for next season. I want to talk through my strategy to see if it makes sense and if I’m on track. Looking for input and ideas and appreciate any and all.

    It’s looking like average days for next season may become 1500-2000 gal days and peak days say 3000 gal due to expansions by the guys I buy sap off of. My goal is to be boiling 15-18% to keep boil times, and wood use, manageable. I also want to be starting early enough that I’m home by midnight on average nights…I know on big nights that’s out the door and OK with that. I think to be able to work mostly full-time during the season, and handle this volume of sap on a 600 in a short period, I need to be concentrating when I’m at work. Sap will be held overnight, and sap delivered during the day, so there will be sap to process while I’m at work.

    I’ll be setting up the following tanks:
    1250 gal sap tank
    625 gal concentrate tank (was permeate tank) For most days, this will be big enough for me to single pass into.
    1100 gal poly perm. tank (new for next year)
    600 gal bulk tank (set off to the side and used as a dump tank for when the 1250 gal tank gets full)

    Option 1: Somewhere, Russ mentioned he starts the RO and concentrates to his concentrate tank when he leaves for work. At some point, the RO will run out of sap and shut off. Because of the size of the concentrate tank, I’ll have to do a 25%/75% conc/perm to make sure the conc. tank doesn’t overflow. Isn’t it bad to leave concentrated sap in the membrane? Aside from that, it’d be a great way for me to get home and have 1500-2000 gal of raw sap concentrated to 8% and an empty raw sap tank. I could then go out and start hauling a load or two of sap for whatever ran that day. Either send it to my concentrate tank or save it to start the following day.

    Option 2: Have Sean start the RO when he drops his sap off for the day. Get home and have the day’s sap sitting in the concentrate tank. Benefit is I don’t have to go to the sugarhouse on my way to work to start the RO, and concentrate isn’t sitting in the membrane for multiple hours.

    Option 3: ?? I haven’t thought of another one.

    If I go with Option 1 or 2, should I run a couple hundred gallons of perm. water through the RO to “freshen” the membrane?

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Chatham NH
    Posts
    1,308

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    Option 4 Add another post? Or could you get that Old Bulk Tank to Cool again? I have held 10% over night but it was really cold, it was 33 coming in the RO and it was about 20 degrees over night, I don't think having it sitting around all day is ideal. I guess my thought would be that more RO capacity would be the easiest solution but I also understand that it's costly.
    Last edited by n8hutch; 04-06-2018 at 05:48 PM.
    Nate Hutchins
    Nate & Kate's Maple
    2022 1000 taps?
    3x10 Intensofire
    20x36 sugarhouse
    CDL 600gph RO
    A wife and 2 kids.

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