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Thread: New sugar shack has started

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,544

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    Why would you have a 200A panel but only run a 100A service to the sugarhouse? I have 200A, but the big question is how much RO could you possibly need in 10 years? If you only need a 125 or 250 RO, the power is much less than if you need a 1200 GPH RO or even larger. While an RO saves loads of time and fuel it takes lots of electric to run it. (the good news is that it saves far more than it uses) That should be where you address your crystal ball. We don't know what that answer might be. If the 12x16 sugarhouse won't get any additions, nor need any, 100A will be plenty, but if you get bitten bad by the maple bug and you add room for a larger evaporator, a large RO, a big water jacketed bottler, a large electric HW heater, a high pressure blower and a few more things, you might well need 200A or even more.
    Try to lay out your production "maybe" goals 5 and 10 years out. Do the power now for the 10 year, if you get even larger, address that issue at that time.
    When I started, I had a 5000 watt generator, then I got a 6000 watt. Then I put in 6240 watts of solar, of which 1480 watts are on battery backup/grid tied, the rest is plain grid tied. When I did that I had to bring in grid power, my house is 3 miles away. I ran a 200A service, but since I have the solar which also feeds the panel, I had to use a 225A panel box with a 200A main (code says I could only over power the box by 10%, that meant I had too much solar to feed into the panel box. With my 225A box and the 10% over rule I could run 247.5 A into the box. That covered my needs). I first thought, when building the sugarhouse that a 30A generator would do it, I now have 45A just if I run my WJ bottler and the RO at the same time, not to mention lights, my high pressure blower, my electric vacuum pump, my 2 freezers for syrup storage and my compressor which powers the filter press air powered diaphragm pump. Not trying to scare you, just pointing out that plans change. My plans went from needing a 30A genny to needing over 100A in about 8 years time, many grow faster than that.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Merrill, Wi
    Posts
    341

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    We put in a 400A service and split it into 2 200A boxes. If we are running the RO, evaporator, lights, compressor and canner we still have the ability to add a 2nd RO without tripping breakers. Also if you are that dependent on electric I would recommend having a plug in on your service so if the power goes out a quick trip to united rentals and your back up and running without the potential of overflowing tanks or spoiled sap.
    Maple Man 85
    Anthony & Rebecca Renken
    2017=200 taps
    2018=4000 taps (goal) 3000 taps (actual)
    2019=7000 taps (goal)
    30x45 Sugar House
    4x16 Leader Vortex
    www.northwoodsmaplefarm.com

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Candia NH
    Posts
    89

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    Good point maple flats. I plan on tapping my entire property which is about 8 acres. I have about 2 acres a logging company opened up before I bought the property. Within the the opened acreage I have 100 maples I'm going to be tapping this spring. I haven't walked the back 6 acres of my property counting maples that are ready to be tapped yet. I also have access to 250 taps on another property for a few years until they move out. My neighbor has 50 acres behind me but I don't think I'll ask him to tap all of that. I guess my maple goals are to tap about 1000-1200 total in maybe 15 years or so. Who knows that could change too but I think that will give me my maple fix. I was bit hard that first year but it's taken me 4 seasons to get this new rig and start my shack. I was sick of the 12 hour boils on my old setup and sick of being out in the elements. Anyways I did take some of the advise and dug a 4' hole today after work where I will put 2" pvc for water lines running up under my slab out about 8" where I'll be caping it for my trench later. I also have an electrician stopping by this week to come up with a game plan for power to it. Will use same hole for 2" pvc for electric lines at the 18" mark. I have called off the truck for Friday unless some miracle happens for digging the floor drain and main drain line out from under it too.
    2018 - ?? 2x5 lapierre raised flue evaporator

    2017 - 150 taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2016 - 230 taps taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2015 - 115 taps mixed buckets, bags and, water jugs. 2.5 x 4 evaporator.

    2014 - 55 taps mixed buckets, bags and, drop lines. 4 steam trays and a block arch. 3 gallons made tapped prematurely (lesson learned)

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,544

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    While I did 1320 on a 250 it was real hard, as you approach 8-900 you should have a 500-600 GPH RO. My 250 did it because my wife ran the RO and boiled while I was driving school bus or hauling sap (most of my sap is hauled 7 miles). Then after my afternoon school bus run I again got 1 more load of sap and when I got to the sugarhouse I took over and my wife went home. On good sap flow days we boiled 7-8 hours with the RO running most of that time.
    The real question is how much time will you have to boil? At that 1320 tap count, I had the 3x8 I now have and it boils about 75-80 gph, but my wife ran it slower, at about 55-60. On my RO plumbing I had it set so I can change from running sap to recirculating concentrate to remove even more water by just opening one valve as we closed another, then we monitored the RO pressure to adjust to handle which ever we had switched to, Both ran at 270-275 PSI but the pressure had to be adjusted a few times to keep it there when the source was changed. My RO runs about 250 gph on sap, a little less when making a second pass. On it my 1st pass removes about 3/4 of the water, on second pass it removes about half the remaining water or just under.
    If you have a well designed and tight system with 1200 taps you will have days, with vacuum that you will get well over 2000 gal of sap. Sap does not keep long, especially if it gets warm. Think of it like milk.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Candia NH
    Posts
    89

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    Maple flats, I usually have about 4 hours after work for boiling but could do 7 at most. Think my wife wouldn't be to happy if I did more than 4, time to get her into it. I dug some more holes today for piping. My builder friend keeps contradicting my pipe size for pex coming in and drains to the dry well. He says i don't need anything more than 1.5" for everything plumbing related. Is 2" better for what I'm doing ? Piping should be done this weekend and the truck is now coming next Friday.
    2018 - ?? 2x5 lapierre raised flue evaporator

    2017 - 150 taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2016 - 230 taps taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2015 - 115 taps mixed buckets, bags and, water jugs. 2.5 x 4 evaporator.

    2014 - 55 taps mixed buckets, bags and, drop lines. 4 steam trays and a block arch. 3 gallons made tapped prematurely (lesson learned)

  6. #16
    amaranth farm Guest

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    Radio Silence.
    Last edited by amaranth farm; 04-06-2018 at 01:36 PM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Walpole, NH
    Posts
    1,363

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    4” green drain pipe is relatively cheap and makes great conduit for running water lines into a building because there is plenty of room. If you aren’t going to heat sugar house consider installing a frost free hydrant for the water.
    Sugaring for 45+ years
    New Sugarhouse 14'x32'
    New to Me Algier 2'x8' wood fired evaporator
    2022 added a used RB25 RO Bucket
    250 mostly Sugar Maples, 15% Soft Maples. Currently,(110on 3/16" and 125 on Shurflo 4008 vacuum, 15 gravity), (16,000 before being disabled)
    1947 Farmall H and Wagon with gathering tank
    2012 Kubota with forks to move wood around

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Chatham NH
    Posts
    1,308

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    I used 3" and 4" schedule 40 for my floor drains and sink drains. I didn't want to have to worry about them backing up, currently it is just run to daylight but sometime next summer I will put in some kind of drywell or stone mattress/leachbed

    The green stuff SDR 35 would work great I just didn't have any handy, I would recommend putting schedule 40 pieces up through the slab then you will know that there will be no building code issues.
    Nate Hutchins
    Nate & Kate's Maple
    2022 1000 taps?
    3x10 Intensofire
    20x36 sugarhouse
    CDL 600gph RO
    A wife and 2 kids.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Candia NH
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Ok I will pick up some bigger pipe for drains. How low below the slab/ground are your drain pipes ? Water and electric conduit are done, starting floor and main drains tomorrow
    2018 - ?? 2x5 lapierre raised flue evaporator

    2017 - 150 taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2016 - 230 taps taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2015 - 115 taps mixed buckets, bags and, water jugs. 2.5 x 4 evaporator.

    2014 - 55 taps mixed buckets, bags and, drop lines. 4 steam trays and a block arch. 3 gallons made tapped prematurely (lesson learned)

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Candia NH
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Long busy weekend prepping for the concrete truck. Got my floor drain and main drains plumbed under where the slab going to be. I put a .6" pitch to the drain out about a foot outside the form. Later to be plumbed into a dry well 15' away. Put the plastic and grid back in. Think I'm good to go now. Floor drain is 5' from the right edge of the slab and 7' from the rear. It will sit real close to my draw off on my pan. Used 3" schedule 40 DWV for the drains as well. Thanks for your help thus far, I'll update as I go and probably have more questions.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    2018 - ?? 2x5 lapierre raised flue evaporator

    2017 - 150 taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2016 - 230 taps taps mixed 2.5 x 4 evaporator

    2015 - 115 taps mixed buckets, bags and, water jugs. 2.5 x 4 evaporator.

    2014 - 55 taps mixed buckets, bags and, drop lines. 4 steam trays and a block arch. 3 gallons made tapped prematurely (lesson learned)

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