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Thread: New to tubing with some questions

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Danielsville, PA
    Posts
    73

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    So I'm thinking here about my situation and I may be able to run all the trees on the left side of my property right to a collection point by my house. I'd have a long run through the yard with nothing on it but I can do some temporary wood supports in the yard. I may even have enough for gravity. How much elevation change should there be to run 3/16th gravity?

    I'll go out in a bit with a transit and measuring wheel but I'm thinking I'll have at least 600' of line and maybe 19-25' of elevation change from the back of my woods to the back corner of my house. I could have approximately 40 trees on that line.

    In the picture behind the playset, approximately 50' in that corner of the woods would be my last tree. I can also see the grade change going up from the house to the woods.

    Ahhh, that maple poem is ringing in my head right now😂IMG_2380.jpg
    Mick


    2017- 45 taps on buckets. Made just over 3 gallons.
    2018- 41 taps on two 3/8” lines on vacuum. Ten lines on 5/16” and gravity with 49 taps. 4 taps on buckets
    Homemade 2x4 Oil Tank Evaporator
    Mountain Maple Smart Sap Sucker
    Maple Jet Filter Press
    Smoky Lake Maple Steam Bottler

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,688

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    Ideally 30' drop after your last tap on 3/16 BUT even 10' gives you natural vacuum. What is the drop across the yard from last tree to your collection point? Remember, now a diaphragm pump can help too.
    With 5/16 you are best (with vacuum) to have 5 taps /line, never more than 10 AND the laterals should not be over 100' long, less is even better. With 3/16 the numbers change radically. As long as the part after the last tap has a drop, you can run lines 1200-1500' or even more (I'm not sure, as long as you have drop that there is a maximum, but there might be, and you can put easily 25 taps on a line, in fact at one time 37 was the stated max, however I had one this past season that had 41 taps and was 1450' long. At the top my slope was minimal, but after it started down hill, I had a 60' drop, but with taps on the way down. I think on that particular line I had about 12' drop below the lowest tap. I also had 18-19" vacuum on the lines that the 3/16 tied into. I had 2 vacuum gauges on that line, the end tree (uphill) had 28-29" depending on the barometric pressure, the lowest tap had 26-27" vacuum. This being said, I plan to split that line in 2 for 2018, I think I'll get more sap.
    Looking at the yard picture, if you come down that slope, then run the 3/16 into a manifold going into a diaphragm pump you should do well. Now you could run a 120V pump rather than a 12V. If you go that plan, run the 3/16 all the way down, do not tie into a mainline at the top (unless you have a good vacuum pump and a releaser). The long slope will generate vacuum.
    In the woods, if you are going to finish with a long slope downhill, you can even get away with some ups and downs in the woods. While not ideal, it still works well, with 5/16 you really hurt flow big time if you have a low spot.
    In my first year with 3/16 I had a big limb fall on my 3/16 line, when I discovered it I just had to watch the flow for several minutes, I stood there watching the sap/gas/sap/gas etc (gas is really carbon dioxide) flow from above, then down in a small depression (maybe 7-8' drop), then under the branch and then the marching column flowed back up to the next tap past that low spot and then proceeded down hill. Of course, my drop after that next tap had good drop, at least 40'.
    Dave Klish, I recently bought a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Danielsville, PA
    Posts
    73

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    Ok so I'm done measuring and surveying everything on that left side of my property and woods. From the back of the woods at my starter tree, to the front of my woods at my end tree it is 350' long and I have 6' 6" of elevation change. I have 35 trees for sure I can tap and I can add 5 more that are in the visinity that are right at 10" in diameter. I can maintain proper pitch if I keep the lines tight from tree to tree and if I tap my first tree at 58".

    From there, I'd have 370' of line with no taps on it running downhill with 7'10" of pitch to my collection point on the north side of my house. I'd also have power there as well if I'd still need to run a pump. I am an absolute needy to pumps and lines so I'd have to read up on them.
    Mick


    2017- 45 taps on buckets. Made just over 3 gallons.
    2018- 41 taps on two 3/8” lines on vacuum. Ten lines on 5/16” and gravity with 49 taps. 4 taps on buckets
    Homemade 2x4 Oil Tank Evaporator
    Mountain Maple Smart Sap Sucker
    Maple Jet Filter Press
    Smoky Lake Maple Steam Bottler

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Danielsville, PA
    Posts
    73

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    I should have mentioned in the total run of 720' I have a total of 14'4" of drop/elevation change in my favor
    Mick


    2017- 45 taps on buckets. Made just over 3 gallons.
    2018- 41 taps on two 3/8” lines on vacuum. Ten lines on 5/16” and gravity with 49 taps. 4 taps on buckets
    Homemade 2x4 Oil Tank Evaporator
    Mountain Maple Smart Sap Sucker
    Maple Jet Filter Press
    Smoky Lake Maple Steam Bottler

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Chatham NH
    Posts
    1,318

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    Mick you are going to want to commit to either 5/16 or 3/16, I can all but guarantee you that the 3/16 will not work well in your situation w/o a vacuum pump of some sort. So if you don't want to run a vacuum pump this year you are probably best going with the 5/16 , then if you decide to add vaccum you can and it will still work for you.

    But if you start with the 3/16 you are going to need a pump, it will not work like you hoped with only 7' of Drop after the last tap w/of a pump.

    I have read that the 110 volt surflo pumps are not as reliable as the 12 volt version's so if you go the shurflo route you may be better off to go with a 12 volt and buy or use a battery you have kicking around and a trickle charger. Good luck hope you get lots of sap.
    Nate Hutchins
    Nate & Kate's Maple
    2022 1000 taps?
    3x10 Intensofire
    20x36 sugarhouse
    CDL 600gph RO
    A wife and 2 kids.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Danielsville, PA
    Posts
    73

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    Quote Originally Posted by n8hutch View Post
    Mick you are going to want to commit to either 5/16 or 3/16, I can all but guarantee you that the 3/16 will not work well in your situation w/o a vacuum pump of some sort. So if you don't want to run a vacuum pump this year you are probably best going with the 5/16 , then if you decide to add vaccum you can and it will still work for you.

    But if you start with the 3/16 you are going to need a pump, it will not work like you hoped with only 7' of Drop after the last tap w/of a pump.

    I have read that the 110 volt surflo pumps are not as reliable as the 12 volt version's so if you go the shurflo route you may be better off to go with a 12 volt and buy or use a battery you have kicking around and a trickle charger. Good luck hope you get lots of sap.
    The more I think about it, I'm pretty certain I'm going with a pump. What kind do I need... good question? I'll take any suggestions for my layout. Up till yesterday all the research I've done is on gravity, so I've got to start more research.

    On that note, if I'm going with a pump do you guys think 5/16 over 3/16? Any specific brand over the other for running tree to tree and keeping it taunt? I still havn't decided if I run 800' of line to my house with power at the porch or just run it to the end of the woods on 12v. It would be more convenient though to be able to walk out my back door though and check on the sap so I'm kinda leaning running it to my house.

    Thank you again, this place is awesome.
    Mick


    2017- 45 taps on buckets. Made just over 3 gallons.
    2018- 41 taps on two 3/8” lines on vacuum. Ten lines on 5/16” and gravity with 49 taps. 4 taps on buckets
    Homemade 2x4 Oil Tank Evaporator
    Mountain Maple Smart Sap Sucker
    Maple Jet Filter Press
    Smoky Lake Maple Steam Bottler

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Mitchell, Indiana
    Posts
    41

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    I use 3/16 on 30 taps. The taps are divided between 2 runs with about 15' drop from the last tap all feeding into one diaphragm pump. One run has to climb over a small hill with no problem. The pump is a small diaphragm pump like they use in soda machines. Look up lunch box releaser. The pump runs off air. Fairly low press about 30psi I feed the air to the pump which is about 80 feet from my compressor in the garage using 3/16 sap line. I suspect you could go any distance you wanted. I adjust the pressure so the pump cycles to keep up with sap flow and have 25 plus on the vacuum gage. In southern Indiana with only 30 taps the pump is a must I feel. I have never compared 3/16 to 5/16 so I can't say which is best for you.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,095

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    If you are going with a pump I highly recommend using 3/16. I have found that you do not need to be as concerned with slope as you do with 5/16. I have 95 taps on one pump and 150 on the other in the same woods with some 3/4" main and now all 3/16 lats. I have some 3/16 lines with about 20 taps on level areas and only lose 1 to 2 psi at the end. I just run the 3/16 from tree to tree and it goes up and down appr. 3 feet through the run. I have three 12 volt 2088 shurflo pumps with 3 years of use and have not had any problems so far with them. During runs last year I was getting 24 to 25 inches of vacuum with them. On one of my better runs last year I got 2.3 gallons of sap on the pumps and 1 gallon per tap on the bags in that same woods.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,688

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    58" tap height? You're over thinking this way too much. 5' tap height is ok, higher than typical but certainly ok. I'm not up on which diaphragm pumps are best, but I have a 3.3 GPM 120V one to run my tankless hot water heater in the sugarhouse (and my bourbon barrel aged maple syrup barrel misting system). It however only runs when I open the hot water valve or 2x a day for 1 minute to run that misting system to keep the barrels damp (cold water/evaporative cooling). My only other diaphragm pumps are on my filter press (air powered) and in my 2 campers (12v).
    Dave Klish, I recently bought a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Princeton, MA
    Posts
    495

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    I concur with Super Sapper. 3/16" tubing is more tolerant of sags. I have a run of 3/16" tubing (no mainline) in a remote section of woods on a Shurflo 4008 12 volt diaphragm pump with battery and solar charger. It is about 600' long, the first half has not much drop and a lot of sags, second half has maybe 15' of drop. About 35 taps. Had a small run 6-8 taps tee'd in too. Ran extremely well and I consistently got 27+" of vacuum everywhere. I could have gotten away with gravity but would have probably gotten half the sap.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Sapper View Post
    If you are going with a pump I highly recommend using 3/16. I have found that you do not need to be as concerned with slope as you do with 5/16. I have 95 taps on one pump and 150 on the other in the same woods with some 3/4" main and now all 3/16 lats. I have some 3/16 lines with about 20 taps on level areas and only lose 1 to 2 psi at the end. I just run the 3/16 from tree to tree and it goes up and down appr. 3 feet through the run. I have three 12 volt 2088 shurflo pumps with 3 years of use and have not had any problems so far with them. During runs last year I was getting 24 to 25 inches of vacuum with them. On one of my better runs last year I got 2.3 gallons of sap on the pumps and 1 gallon per tap on the bags in that same woods.
    Mountain Maple farm
    2022 NAMSC award winning dark amber syrup
    2023: 320 taps, 70% red maples. Mountain Maple S4 diaphragm pump controller with automated sap transfer and text messaging
    Website:
    https://www.mountainmaplefarm.com
    https://www.facebook.com/MountainMapleFarm/

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