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Thread: Black spots and Hydrogen Peroxide

  1. #21
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    The microbes don't survive the boiling, but they do contribute to darker syrup to some extent.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspina14 View Post
    Does the microbe load in the tubing effect sap, either in quality or quantity?
    Higher microbial load causes higher sucrose inversion, which results in darker and stronger tasting syrup.

    I assume because sap is boiled so long in the syrup production process, that not many, if any, microbes survive by the time sap gets to be syrup in the evaporator.
    The microbes are killed by boiling. There should be none left after boiling.

    But is quantity effected by microbes in the tubing?
    Yes, backflow of sap can occur from the sap collection system -- primarily from the spout, but also a good bit from the drop, very little from the lateral line, and none from the mainline. That is why changing droplines periodically (if you don't use CVs) will increase sap yields. Backflow seems to be able to come from further back in the line in 3/16" than 5/16" lines due to the smaller internal diameter.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  3. #23
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    Thanks Dr. Perkins.

    I'm a student of the industry. So I appreciate your response (and research work). I apologize if these questions have been already answered in this forum.

    So if microbial load in the tubing causes higher sucrose inversion, which results in darker and stronger tasting syrup, is it correct to assume that some kind of tubing sanitation process would have a beneficial effect on syrup quality (assuming of course, that one prefers lighter, more delicate tasting syrup to darker, stronger tasting syrup).

    The three tubing sanitation processes I've read about on MT are flushing with Hydrogen Peroxide, flushing with bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite), and "air drying" (pulling taps at the end of the season with the vacuum running).

    Do each of these processes provide a sanitation effect on the tubing?

    Is there any process that has been determined to completely eliminate all microbial loading in tubing?

    Thanks

    Mark
    Mason 2x4 w/raised flue pan, 240 gal. sap tank, 80 Reds on 5/16 tubing and Lunchbox releaser/pump, 20 sugars on buckets

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspina14 View Post
    So if microbial load in the tubing causes higher sucrose inversion, which results in darker and stronger tasting syrup, is it correct to assume that some kind of tubing sanitation process would have a beneficial effect on syrup quality (assuming of course, that one prefers lighter, more delicate tasting syrup to darker, stronger tasting syrup).
    That is the assumption, however it has not been rigorously tested. Because regrowth happens so quickly, the effect is very transient. The flush of liquid down the lines during a good sap run probably has much the same effect. When sap flow slows to a trickle during a warm spell, regrowth in tubing systems is very fast. Studies have looked at in-season cleaning (in addition to pre-season cleaning) seem to indicate that the sanitizing effect is very short-lived.

    Is there any process that has been determined to completely eliminate all microbial loading in tubing?
    No such thing exists (at least nothing that is legally allowed or safe enough for producers to use). All "sanitizing" treatments will reduce microbial contamination during the time that the sanitizer is used, but in many cases, they will regrow fairly quickly. Part of sanitizing is removing material that the microbes feed upon so that regrowth will be reduced.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  5. #25
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    Thanks Dr. Perkins.

    Very enlightening.

    I didn't realize the microbes grow back so quickly in the tubing. If the tubing is "sealed" at both ends, how do they get in there?

    I guess some are always in the tubing, even after a thorough flushing with a sanitizing solution.

    If the tubing is flushed with a sanitizing solution or "air dried" at the end of the season, is there less microbe growth in the tubing than that which occurs during the season (between sap runs, for example)?

    Mark
    Mason 2x4 w/raised flue pan, 240 gal. sap tank, 80 Reds on 5/16 tubing and Lunchbox releaser/pump, 20 sugars on buckets

  6. #26
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    They are in there from the first day sap entered the tubing. The sap of a healthy tree is essentially sterile, but as soon as it leaves the tree that changes. Regardless of which if any method you use to clean or sanitize tubing, it is never totally effective, some microbes still reside in the tubing and it's pores, ready to grow again.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

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