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Thread: Retapping Reaearch Results 2017

  1. #21
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    Hi Brandon,

    Sorry it took a few days to get back to you. I was away and only had my phone to check email and MapleTrader, so didn't feel like responding in that way.

    First I'd like to say that the original question is very important and interesting. Sugarmakers know that there are two seasons....fall and spring. But only the spring season has been utilized. As the climate warms (regardless of why), the season is getting compressed at the ends, with the two season peaks moving closer together. Whether it is possible to tap in the fall and have a viable taphole in the spring is a question that I've pondered and mentioned to many people for several years now, but just haven't yet had the time or funding to do (there are always more projects to do than time or resources allow). I would be very interested in doing this study across a geographical gradient that included southern sites. I'm really only interested in doing research if it is done properly and can answer questions with some degree of certainty....and if it can be completed before I retire.

    In terms of the original message you conveyed, several posters have noted the same issues that I had. Chief among these is that there was really no adequate control (for comparison purposes). When we do research, the first thing we do is to make sure we have strong controls. This not only allows us to detect smaller changes, but also allows us to isolate the single variable causing the response. In addition, it allows us to say statistically (within a certain degree of confidence) whether what we observe is likely to be real and caused by the variable in question, occurred simply due to chance, or was within the error of the observation. It doesn't seem like those factors were included in your "research." Please don't misunderstand me....I think the goal of your project was interesting and worthy of study, and that the results are interesting, but I object to calling this work "research" and don't place a lot of value on it for decision-making purposes.

    When doing "research", having a good and examinable question is the first thing. In your case, I think you probably had a good question (does "retapping" or "reaming") help? However, there are some questions of definitions and semantics. Reaming usually refers to tapping with a wider bit, and may or may not include drilling deeper. Retapping is putting a new hole in the tree. What you seem to have done is "reaming" with a deeper taphole, not "retapping."

    Why is having a good control important? First, you need to have something to compare to. Comparing one sugarbush to another isn't a decent control. Perhaps if you have 15 of one type and 15 of another type it would work, but what you've done is more like comparing apples and shoe brushes. Why? First, the sites were tapped at different times. They were also tapped with different spouts in terms of color and in terms of composition -- one seems to have been a black nylon and one is a clear or light-colored polycarbonate. Black spouts will always outperform light-colored spouts in cold years and perform much worse in hot sunny seasons. Polycarbonate tends to stick better in the tree and thus hold vacuum better. Either of those factors could contribute somewhat to the differences you observed and seemed to ascribe solely to the fact that one was a CV and the other was not. Were they all tapped in the same orientation? Were the droplines all the same age and composition and had been cleaned in the same way by the same people? Were all the taps made at the same height? Same tappers doing the work? Same tapping bit at the same depth? Same vacuum? Same releasers? Same diameter trees? As you know, 1" Hg difference in vacuum means 5-7% difference in sap yield. Similarly, 1" difference in diameter means about 2 gal difference in sap production, and does also affect sugar content? Sounds like you had some producers on pumped vacuum and some on natural vacuum? Was vacuum continuously measured so you know what it was? Was leak checking at each of the sites EXACTLY the same? When we do research, we ensure that as many things as we can possibly control are all identical. Otherwise it is quite easy to see a 25% difference in sap yield, but have it NOT be statistically significant due to the high number of factors affecting sap yield and the degree of variability we find. Unfortunately doing GOOD research is neither easy, nor cheap.

    You also don't have good control even within the site that used CVs. You changed the parameters in the entire site halfway through. How much more would those taps have run if you hadn't reamed? You might think they'd stopped, but you will never really know since it wasn't measured. Was it just poor weather that caused the reduced flow, or was it clogging? You cannot tell. The better approach would have been to have two (or better yet, a bunch of) separate lines at that site and reamed half of them and not reamed the other half. Then you'd have a good idea of how that one factor (reaming vs not reaming) affected sap yield. Unfortunately, doing that might have meant a loss in sap for the producer. That is why dedicated research centers are important -- we can do things that might cost us sap production because the value for us in in the research, so we don't need to make those sorts of compromises and jeopardize doing good research.

    There are undoubtedly MANY possible factors that contributed to the results you found. I don't think you can really subscribe them to any one thing. Moreover, you suggest that this was an unusually warm season (warmest winter on record). That is why GOOD research also takes time. We typically don't like to talk about one year worth of results....and especially don't like to talk about them or more firm conclusions if it is an unusual year until we get some replication. Replication is another important facet of GOOD research. This is both replication in terms of experimental units (number of trees or number of study sites depending upon how the experiment is set up) and replication in terms of whether or not we observe the same results from one season to the next (we all know that each maple season is a little different from prior years). It appears to me that you have neither type of replication....again, why I don't really consider your project to be "research."

    Finally, as others have pointed out, you are a dealer for a company that doesn't sell CVs. I have no problem with that, but it is worth mentioning that all the actual studies that have been done by actual researchers have shown that CVs do what it is claimed they do. CDL sponsored two studies by Centre Acer. The first found no difference in yield, but the study had serious design flaws. When repeated correctly, they did find a significant positive effect of CVs. Admittedly, there hasn't been any research done in the southern fringe of maple production, so the inference may not extend to that area completely for unknown reasons. There's no reason to believe that is true, but we cannot discount it since it hasn't been actually studied there (limitations of inference is another important factor in scientific research).

    Getting more sap is really not the important question. We know some things that could be done that would get HUGE amounts of sap....but they aren't practical or economical to do in the real world. What is most important to most producers is getting the highest net profit. If you repeat your project, it might be interesting to also factor in the time and cost of "reaming" into the equation.

    So again, your results are interesting....just not what I consider "research" and certainly don't definitively answer any question. Don't take that as an insult....not at all my intention. GOOD science isn't cheap or easy and understanding all the things involved in doing GOOD field research takes a lot of training and experience to accomplish. I would be very happy to chat with you about how to do a more appropriate study and perhaps in cooperating with Dr. Mike Rechlin (note spelling of his name) to do some research if we can find funding to do so.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 06-05-2017 at 02:34 PM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  2. #22
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    I retapped/reamed for many years before invention of antimicrobial spouts and cv spouts. I did ream 100 trees the end of March and it did increase the sapflow.

  3. #23
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    Dr Tim,

    I take no offense to what you say and I totally understand and always enjoy reading your research and appreciate everything you have done. I do have a degree but it is in math, not in science and I don't have but a small percentage of the maple knowledge you have. I understand fully what you said and reason the term "retapping" was used instead of reaming is because of most have tried reaming which is just making hole larger without going deeper with hardly any success over the years. Yes, it may improve flow for a day or two, but not long term. The one sugarbush I referred to at the start of this thread with CV1s wasn't getting hardly any sap with 24 to 25 inches of vacuum after a freeze, thus I assume it was safe to say the holes weren't going to run anymore as he ran the vacuum pump for a couple of days. Going forward, I will refer to this as "redrilling" instead of retapping.

    Obviously, we didn't have anywhere near the controls you had in place nor can me take the procedures you do, but we got the ball rolling in the right direction. Will this work every year, we intend to find out as we pursue this more into the future. We will likely try tapping even earlier next year with some and may try to "redrill" holes deeper about 70% of the way through the season on some of the areas. Obviously I think this would help play into hands of the ones who want to do some fall tapping to tap in late fall and "redrill" deeper in the spring. Will this be the best way to maximize production above all other methods, we don't know but we will continue to try different things.

    I apologize for the mis-spelling on the title of the post as I posted all of it from my Iphone sitting on my deck, thus I can understand why you didn't want to respond. As far as check valves, I have read probably everything that has been posted on them and my point was that I was surprised that they stopped running as quickly as they did and I didn't say they don't provide benefit, but they didn't seem to show it this year. Keep in mind the temperatures we seen this year dried up holes quickly. I do agree with you that poly carbonate spouts are the best for leak prevention and maintaining seal throughout the season. We don't make any claims to be "experts" like Proctor or Cornell but I always enjoy talking the experts from each place. I felt this was useful information that others may want to try and see some of the results since it was referred on the forum a couple weeks before I started this thread.
    Last edited by WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER; 06-05-2017 at 04:39 PM.
    Brandon

    CDL dealer for All of West Virginia & Virginia
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainvan View Post
    I retapped/reamed for many years before invention of antimicrobial spouts and cv spouts. I did ream 100 trees the end of March and it did increase the sapflow.
    I recall your saying that. There is no question it can increase sapflow to some extent. The question is what is the best approach (reaming larger or drilling deeper) is the best, and whether it is economical to do so. I do think it is something worthy of further research....just haven't yet had the time or funding to do so.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  5. #25
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    I guess the question I have is what is better. Tap full depth right from the start or add an extra 1/2 inch to the tap hole mid way through the season. What really interest me is that PMRC has experimented with over sized tubing and fittings ( kinda eliminating lateral lines ) and had gotten 40+ GPT. I was told this by a salesman at Leader a few years back. It is said that the cost is way to much to set a woods up this way making it more profitable. I would love to hear more on this.

    WestVirginiamaple It is fun to read about your experiment and I would enjoy reading more about it in the years to come. It just took me by surprise that your area is so cold in Dec-Jan. You must be way up in the hills. Whats your elevation? What way is your woods facing? I have learned from this Thread so thank you for starting it.

    Spud

  6. #26
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    Spud,

    Thanks for the kind words as I spend a lot of time helping others and really enjoy it a lot and I think this is the kind of information we can benefit from. I have tried "reaming" holes a couple times in the past 28 years and it was a complete waste of time. I'm referring to running a bit in and out of the hole without going any deeper. I think the key is to go least 1/2" deeper, it's almost like a new 1/2" fresh taphole.

    My elevation is 2400' to 2900' and I about half of the trees are north facing and most of the rest are East facing and some south facing.

    We have producers in the state with trees anywhere from 700' to 4,600', yes that is NOT a typo. We have such a vast difference in terrain and elevation across the state that this kind of research can be a big benefit to producers when we had the warmest maple season in the last 30 years.
    Brandon

    CDL dealer for All of West Virginia & Virginia
    3x10 CDL Deluxe oil fired
    Kubota M7040 4x4 Tractor w/ 1153 Loader hauling sap
    2,400+ taps on 3/16 CDL natural vacuum on 9 properties
    24x56 sugarhouse
    CDL 1,000 2 post RO


    WEBSITE: http://danielsmaple.com

  7. #27
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    I have to defend WestViriniamapler here a bit, Dr. Tim. I offer up too that I'm not trying to demean or offend you or anyone. I believe he did do research, but you are correct he did not design a scientific study. I know it's splitting hairs, but he wanted to investigate if he could find better methods to get better sap flows. On a personal scale he was researching what he could by the means available to him. Even if all he done was read your published works he was researching. This is kind of a pet peeve of mine as I got dug at for years by University research designers. I done a lot of my own research or maybe I should say trial and error and although it did not meet the standards of scientific design I was able to develop techniques that completely changed the approach of production for my line of work and I was recognized nationally by my peers, although; my work was never accepted well by the University level researchers, but they sure liked using me for ideas. They would design studies around what I was doing and ask for huge grants to "research" what I was already applying to production. I for one say he can call it research.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye gold View Post
    I believe he did do research, but you are correct he did not design a scientific study. I know it's splitting hairs, but he wanted to investigate if he could find better methods to get better sap flows. On a personal scale he was researching what he could by the means available to him.
    I understand and can accept your definition (and take no offense), however the original post characterized this as a "research experiment" which was then presented to others as a PowerPoint and then in this forum. Generally with scientific research there are a lot of caveats described when presenting results and the methods are clearly spelled out. We got very little of that until several posts later. In addition, in my opinion, the early statements are not really supported well by either the methods or the results.

    Again, not criticizing the idea itself....but simply saying that I do not consider the results to be indicative of anything unless and until the "experiment" is done properly. The way it was done there is simply no way to attribute any particular result to anything with any degree of certainty.

    As for your situation Buckeye....the maple industry is less like that than many others. The vast majority of improvements and ideas have come from equipment manufacturers and producers over the years. I guess we are fortunate in that way.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 06-06-2017 at 07:32 AM.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    I guess the question I have is what is better. Tap full depth right from the start or add an extra 1/2 inch to the tap hole mid way through the season.
    Yes, that is a good question. Now the problem becomes how to answer it properly to achieve an answer you can have some confidence in. I'd be happy to help designing an experiment to answer that question if you like Brandon.

    What really interest me is that PMRC has experimented with over sized tubing and fittings ( kinda eliminating lateral lines ) and had gotten 40+ GPT. I was told this by a salesman at Leader a few years back. It is said that the cost is way to much to set a woods up this way making it more profitable. I would love to hear more on this.
    In smaller scale studies we've founds lots of interesting ways to get very high sap yields. The problems arise in 1) scaling them up to sugarbush size experiments, 2) making them cost effective, and 3) ensuring that these yields are sustainable in the long-term. Large diameter tubing worked well in small trials, but in scaling up, the issues became that the tubing was too heavy to be self-supporting (the larger lateral lines sag) so you end up with low spots that collect sap and freeze up and prohibit good vacuum transfer and 2) leak-checking is nearly impossible since there is little liquid in the line to create bubbles. The thing that worked best was dual-lateral/dual-droplines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4mhesDuj0 however the cost was prohibitive at current sap prices. Some information on various vacuum studies at PMRC can be found at:

    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Summary%20o...%20Systems.pdf
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  10. #30
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    I don't take offense to any of the statements and will continue to pursue this in the future. One producer mentioned above went for 13 days without any sap and one 5 day freeze during the 13 days where temps got into the single digits and the tap holes still never ran until 4 days after the freeze end and he "redrilled" deeper and got 7.55 gpt in 4 days. Yes, it is safe to say these holes were never going to run anymore unless he had redrilled.

    At the 5 properties I referred to as the control bush, these taps were still running 2 weeks after redrilling and although I can't prove this due to the freezing stopped 5 days before we quit making syrup, as strong as these taps ran I believe we would have gotten sap for another couple of weeks if we had the freezing nights. Why do I say this, because we got the biggest one run I we had ever seen. We boiled 7.3 gpt in 6.5 days and we didn't measure what we dumped or let run on the ground, but the best I can estimate the total sap was about 9 gpt in 6.5 days with only 2 very minor freeze the second and third nights of the run.

    Again, I felt this was interesting information and likely the start of something that we will continue to work with for number of years in the future if the Lord allows me more years to do this. There is no reason to "fudge" numbers, just present as close to accurate results.

    One thing you have to remember is that we were dealing with extremely warm temps this year, 27 of the 52 days were above 50 degrees with a lot of days in 60s and 70s. Temps that we haven't seen in my 28 years of making syrup.
    Brandon

    CDL dealer for All of West Virginia & Virginia
    3x10 CDL Deluxe oil fired
    Kubota M7040 4x4 Tractor w/ 1153 Loader hauling sap
    2,400+ taps on 3/16 CDL natural vacuum on 9 properties
    24x56 sugarhouse
    CDL 1,000 2 post RO


    WEBSITE: http://danielsmaple.com

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