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Thread: Concentrate and permeate control

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    IMG_0557.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by maple flats View Post
    What pressure does your RO instructions say it should run at? On my 250 Deer Run, I think if I ran at 150 PSI the flow may be similar to yours, or at least the concentrate flow would far exceed the permeate. I'll try that to see today. Turn your valve that adjusts the pressure until you show a pressure of about 25-35 PSI under your max. possible. You will see a big difference. If you do not restrict the concentrate flow after the membrane, you will remove very little water. It is the pressure that pushes the water thru the membrane while the sugars can't go thru and they exit as concentrate. Some place there must be an indication as to your max. pressure. Besides my poorly written manual, my gauge only goes up to 300 PSI and a red line starts at 275. The 275 or barely under it is where I run. I control my PSI in 2 ways, 1st, I have a large needle valve just under the concentrate flow meter, that gets set first. I start with it backed off a couple of turns and run until I get the air out and the concentrate reading clears. Then I turn that to 275-280 and I then open a smaller needle valve that is t'd into the concentrate line before the main needle valve, it is my recirculate valve and it runs concentrate back to the high pressure pump at it's inlet. I open that valve a little, then I turn the main needle valve up to 280 and again back off the pressure opening the small needle valve more. I repeat this 3 or 4 times and then I run. At that point depending on sap temperature and clarity, I'll be at about 275 PSI, have a flow of about 1.1-1.2 GPM concentrate and the rest of my 240-260 GPH will be permeate. I run like that and if my head tank gets high enough, I reduce the pressure, close the re-circulation valve and I open the valve on a line from my head tank, close the sap line and by just opening one as I close the other I'm re-concentrating the contents of the tank which had been concentrated already. Once the concentrate hits the RO, the pressure will climb, when it stops climbing, I again urn the main needle valve so I have 270-275 PSI and the little valve stays closed. In this mode I need to check the pressure at each fueling of the fire, because it will slowly climb and need to be backed off every 9-18 minutes (I fuel every 9 minutes).
    Try this and see if your results don't get lots better. Being a 160 GPH unit the numbers will be lower, but the results should be similar. You should be able to get more permeate than concentrate but likely not as great of a ratio as 1 part concentrate and 3 parts permeate. Your system likely runs at a lower max. pressure if it has 2- 4x40 membranes.
    I was only adjusting one valve called the V2 valve that would regulate the pressure on the membrane dial gauge. See pic. also, my 4x40 membranes are Airablo Hydranautics PVD1
    Last edited by adk1; 03-01-2017 at 03:21 PM.
    FIRST GENERATION SUGARMAKER
    First boil 2/22/2012! Went Pefect!
    3,500' of laterals
    1,000' of mainline
    2012 - 105 taps on gravity, 12 sap sacks.
    2013 - 175 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks = 200 taps for 2013! Second year.
    2014 - 250 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks
    Tapped on February 16, 2014
    2015 - adding vac sap puller no more gravity for me!
    275 gallon holding tank for 2014
    20'x30' Sugarhouse

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bristol, VT
    Posts
    1,803

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    In your photo there is a stainless valve on the stainless manifold on the left side of photo. The ball valve with two blue high pressure lines coming out of the bottom of it. What are you doing with that valve while concentrating? It should be closed when concentrating and open when rinsing or washing.

    According to the instructions this valve I am referring to is labeled as V1.

    http://www.leaderevaporator.com/pdf_...gph_manual.pdf

    Also, what does the membrane pressure gauge read up to? After a quick glance at the manual I don't see what they recommend for max pressure but the examples they provide suggest you could be concentrating at 450 psi.
    Last edited by GeneralStark; 03-01-2017 at 04:59 PM.
    About 750 taps on High Vac.
    2.5 x 8 Intens-O-Fire
    Airtech 3 hp LR Pump
    Springtech Elite 500 RO
    14 x 24 Timber Frame SugarHouse
    16 x 22 Sap Shed w/ 1500 gal. + 700 gal. tanks
    www.littlehogbackfarm.com

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
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    If I run 2% sap in I get about 7.9-8.1% out. Unfiortunately this year the sugar has been the lowest I've ever had. What I ran today was only 1.4%. This year I have had 1 day only at 1.9%, a few at 1.7 then 1.6, 1.5 and finally 1.4 is my lowest. At 1.4 I can squeeze it enough to get 7-8% but when doing that I have a lot going back thru re-circulate. Then my net flows really suffer. I tried getting 8% and did, but the concentrate was only at 0.6 GPM and the permeate was 1.9% and the rest was going the path back to recirculate. I can't boil with that low of a concentrate flow, so I then backed off the pressure a little, closed the re-circulation loop and then I got 2 gpm concentrate and 2.3 gpm permeate. I didn't test the sugar % but I'm guessing it was close to 3%. I far prefer running 2.3-2.8% sap and getting 9-10% concentrate, but not this year. his year has been a sugar% challenge for sure. It would have been impossible without an RO. My wife likes the 45% RO but neither of us even dare get a price.
    Dave Klish about 1320 taps in '15, down to about 700 in '16, up to 1000 for 2019?
    2012 Mahindra 36 HP 4x4/ loader/cab/heat/AC:-)
    added a gooseneck equipment trailer and F350 to tow it to haul more sap
    3x8 raised flue evaporator
    250 GPH converted to electric, RO by Ray Gingerich
    6.32 KW solar system, 1.48KW is battery backed up, all net metered
    http://s1041.photobucket.com/albums/...anssugarhouse/
    website: www.cnymaple.com

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    Adirondacks
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    Sugarman3 stopped by tonight and got the ro all straightened out for me. Before long I was concentrating 2% sap to 8% sap. Can't thank him enough! Filled my 130 gallon permeate tank for a rinse cycle. Love it!
    FIRST GENERATION SUGARMAKER
    First boil 2/22/2012! Went Pefect!
    3,500' of laterals
    1,000' of mainline
    2012 - 105 taps on gravity, 12 sap sacks.
    2013 - 175 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks = 200 taps for 2013! Second year.
    2014 - 250 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks
    Tapped on February 16, 2014
    2015 - adding vac sap puller no more gravity for me!
    275 gallon holding tank for 2014
    20'x30' Sugarhouse

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Barnet, VT
    Posts
    2,442

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    What was wrong?
    William
    900 taps plus 1200 purchased sap
    3 X 12 Thor pans on a Brian design arch
    1986 Seprotech 900 RO

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Adirondacks
    Posts
    2,791

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    Operator inexperience. I thought that I was had increased the pressure on the membrane to the max when actually the valve was simply sticky (sugared over) and you really had to crank on it to work. I need to remove it and run it under some hot water for while. So I basically was not putting enough pressure on the membrane etc. Like I said, operator inexperience.
    FIRST GENERATION SUGARMAKER
    First boil 2/22/2012! Went Pefect!
    3,500' of laterals
    1,000' of mainline
    2012 - 105 taps on gravity, 12 sap sacks.
    2013 - 175 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks = 200 taps for 2013! Second year.
    2014 - 250 taps on gravity, 25 on sacks
    Tapped on February 16, 2014
    2015 - adding vac sap puller no more gravity for me!
    275 gallon holding tank for 2014
    20'x30' Sugarhouse

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