hodorskib's Small Scale RO Build

[hodorskib]

You will not build pressure running just water. You will see the rise in pressure when you start running sap - wait to adjust until then. Good luck

[sweetvt]

A few questions about these small scale ro's:

What is the advantage/disadvantage to plumbing these hobby ro's in series vs. parallel It looks like Hordoskib's uses series and something like the RO Bucket has them in parallel design. Curious as to what others have found? The RO bucket has larger membranes (GPD) and looks like a larger pump (not sure what pressure their pump will achieve) . Their RB -15 model claims to process something like 20 -25 GPH of water or 10 gals of concentrate per hour.... I regularly collect 75- 140 gals when the sap runs and can evaporate 18- 20 GPH. I am trying to decide if one of these hobby RO's will process sap in a timely enough manner so that I don't end up having concentrated sap sitting around for a day plus waiting to boil. As with most, I have a day job and collect in the afternoon after work and usually boil at night.

If what I read about these rates for these small ones is accurate, I would need to plan to have the Ro on some type of timer to process the next day and have it concentrated for the next days boil that evening. Also if these type of RO's were concentrating to say only 5% could I expect an increase in the gph concentrate and how much 5% could I expect per hour?

Thanks

[ecolbeck]

I think a good general rule is that for a given system flow and concentration are inversely proportional to each other. You can have either have high flow through the system or high concentration but not both. A system plumbed in series will produce a more concentrated sap but at a slower rate. A system plumbed in parallel will produce more output but at a lower concentration. Cold sap seems to slow it down too.

I’m using the RB15 kit feeding straight into a cdl 18x48 drop flue running at 12-15ish gph. Yesterday I boiled 60 ish gallons of sap in about 4 ish hours and pulled out about 20 ish gallons of permeate. This was all on the fly I did not have time toconcentrate anything ahead of time. I didn’t run the RO at full capacity because I was feeding the pan with the pump

Hopefully all of this blabbering answers your question an gives you an idea of what the kits can do. I’m really happy with mine so far.

[Clinkis]

Another reason that many people plumb these types of RO’s in series is to maintain a higher flow rate acrosss each membrane and thus you get a lot less fouling. When I ran this style of RO I tried it both ways and found series worked the best. I was using an 8852 Aquatec pump.

[hodorskib]

I have tried it both ways and found the series works best for me. I run mine while I am sleeping or at work and found that a single pass to a holding tank gives me a better quality syrup in the end. Everytime it passes through the pump it heats up the sap - so by just going through once it limits the heating. Also, I have found that it takes roughly the same amount either in series or parallel to process. One drawback to running in series is you need to clean often. With this said I did build a new system this year with 3 - 400gpd membranes in series and although fixing some leaking issues I was taking 1.2% to 8% in a single pass at a rate of 12 gallons per hour. I am also using an RO soap instead of just peroxide to keep the membranes clean. I will be posting all my results at the end of the season to my website.

[eustis22]

so I built this, and I am finishing up the connections, and my tubing is just sliding out of my needle valve. Is that supposed to happen? I have the tubing thru the olive

[edit]

nm...apparrently you have to really torque down the nut

[sweetvt]

Hodorskib, , is that 12 gph of concentrate? If so that is a decent increase by going with the larger membranes 400 vs the 150gpd correct? The aqua tech pump handles these with no issues? Are your sap temps in the 30’s something degree range ? So if I understand you correctly after you collect you ro and then boil concentrate the next day? Any issues with concentrate going bad? In looking at your past yearly logs I see you are making a good deal of Amber or lighter grades still?

Last question, is there a source online for the soap you are using and as time permits can you describe the cleaning process with the soap ?

Thanks

[eustis22]

in addition to sweetvts questions, does the rinse permeate have to be a certain temperature?

[hodorskib]

The rate of process is 12 gallons total - since my sap has been running 1.2% or less I have been removing about 85% of the water (so around 2 gallons of concentrate to 10 gallons of permeate).

The soap I am using is from CDL - https://webstore.cdlusa.net/en/Catal...=022009001&ps= this is an organic product and was under 20 dollars so that is why I selected it.

The flushing and cleaning process I have been using this year:

After each time I run the RO I take 5 gallons of permeate in a bucket (1.5 - 2 gallons I put in a pot and bring to a boil then add it to the cold stuff - this gives me a temperature between 90-100 degrees *** don't go over 100 degrees) then run it through the system with the needle valve wide open and both the permeate and concentrate lines back in the bucket of warm water. I let this recirculate for at least an hour.

For cleaning - I have been doing after every two or three days of operation (this will increase as the season goes on with more bacteria building in the system) I take the same warm permeate but add the RO soap to it until it reaches a PH of 11. Then recirculate as above for 1-2 hours. It is amazing how this stuff works. For me I needed to about 1 level tablespoon of soap powder to achieve that level. So the 1kg container will be enough for me to do like 40 or 50 washings. Then I flush with permeate for at least an hour - this time letting it flow down the drain. If you don't have access to the soap right now I have heard back from some other folks who are using similar systems using 2 quarts of hydrogen peroxide instead and getting good results as well.

I have processed 400 gallons of sap this week and it seems to be working well. Last season as things went along the performance of my membranes deteriorated which is why I am trying the ro soap this year. I have also checked with the manufacturer specs on my membranes and 11ph is the max level.

I will be posting everything to my website at the end of the season to make sure it all works out - but there seems to be enough interest to put out what I am trying now.

The last question about letting the concentrate sit - yes I run my RO while I am sleeping or at work so yes it does sit sometimes for 12-16 hours. I wish I could boil right away but this is a hobby and not my job so I do what I can. It is stored either on the North side of my house in the shade or in my garage which is about 55 degrees. If we get warm weather I will freeze some concentrate in milk jugs and put them in the holding tank during the day. Over the past 6 years using the RO I would have to say 85% of syrup produced as been Amber with the rest being Dark and last year made some really dark stuff.

[Blacksheep7]

Hodorskib, I built mine with 3-400’s as well, but used 1/4” line. Is yours built with 3/8”? Do you think I will loose much flow by this? I thought I would start with this and upgrade the line if needed.

Thanks,
Jason


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