2016 Pro Homemade RO for 4-500 taps Invested $1500 so far

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Hello, cool setup.

I'm curious about your calculations for the system ? Did you just ballpark it or did you calculate feedflow with a certain GPH permeate and recovery rate to chose the pump and membranes ?

1 - I'm just saying, but looking, for exemple, at the HP requirements for the Procon Series 5 265GPH pump, the pump needs a bit more than 3/4HP if you plan on running it anywhere higher than 200 PSI psi (at wich pressure it would output 259 GPH). https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.co...0Pump_spec.pdf.

2 - For the membranes, one 4x40 seem to be rated at 2400 GPD at 77F under 225 psi and 15% recovery rate. To reach these specs for 2 membranes (4800 GPD), with a feed flow at 225 PSI, I calculate the needed feed flow to be 1333 GPH (15% = 4800 GPD permeate, 100% = 32000 GPD feed flow). A bit more than 5 times the GPH output of your Procon pump for that pressure.

With the current pump, at 225 PSI (assuming 3/4 HP) the pump should output around between 228-232 GPH of feed flow (lets assume 230GPH) (see pump specs link higher), at 15% recovery rate, this would get you a permeate flow of 34,5 GPH (witch is not bad if thats where your needs are) but only one membrane would have done the same job. I would suggest you use your membrane in series, because I suspect the low feedflow (230GPH compared to the needed 666 GPH membrane spec) would fool the membranes faster if the're setup in paralell.


3 - Also, the serie 5 pump seem it can be set to a max relief pressure of 250 PSI. Looking at some of the 4x40 membranes available on the web, the ones I could find have rated max pressures of 600 PSI, therefore the pressure relief valve on the pump will open and protect the membranes much before the max pressure of the membranes could be reached.

Unless other parts of the setup are not suited to whitstand 250 PSI I would think you already have a high pressure switch built in the pump relief valve ? I'm not sure but I would think there should be a way to set the relief valve to the lowest max pressure rating of any components in the system.

I'm brand new to this RO thing/setup, so if anybody would like to conterverify my points and come up with some other explanations/remarks, I'd be more than happy.

Thanks

Wow... For someone claiming to be new, you sure seem to have a lot of acquired knowledge on this!

I do spend a dime trying to save a nickel now and then, and this is maybe the case here.

I am not a numbers cruncher, and cannot respond well on the detail, but you seem to be right on the surface on the numbers that I have reviewed. I originally planned on a single membrane, but decided to build it for two for future use or resale value. I got such a good price on the Procon pump, and trying to save the cost of the adapter ($75), I went with the 48Y (clamp style) 3/4 HP motor, knowing it would restrict my pressure to 200psi at the 265gph flow rate. The 600 psi max is irrelevent, and I will get more pressure output than the rating from the procon, as it is supplied an initial pressure that is acting as a boost pump.
On the issue of low flow, and fouling, I will have the TDS meter and can clean more often if needed I will not need to use this long hours with my 350 taps.
I have spend many, many hours on the forums reviewing other peoples successes and went with my gut on that. As for all the second guessing my selection of equipment, I think I have made reasonable choices, and think I will be satisfied with my creation.
I think the folks at Maple Expert Solutions know a little bit about what is required to operate the membrane that they produce when they design and sell up to 16 inch membrane RO's, and a series of hobby RO's and their "Dolly 225" 225gph machine is powered by a 1/2 hp feed pump. and a 3/4 hp motor to run a 2 membrane 4x40 designed to run at 200 psi.... Many previous successes have found that their units run best at 180-200 psi..
http://www.mapleexperts.com/MESDollySpecSheets.pdf
In the end, the truth will be known in my success or failure (not likely from my track record).

Eric

Hello again,

1- Looking at your parts list, I found that the Pentek 150071 Filter seems rated at 125 psi max pressure .

I'ts not saying that you cant run it higher, but I would think it's a bit asking for trouble. So if you went with the pressure switch as you state in your last post, I would think you would need to set it not verry much higher than 125 PSI, to avoid possible break-ups.

2- Oh (again not an experts advice) but if my last calculations are right, and the best permeate flow available with the setup is 34.5 GPH or about .5 GPM (thats @ 77F, 225 PSI), then the permeate flow meter LZT-1002-M would be usefull.

But, IF your sap temp is lower then 77F or the runnig pressure is set lower than 225 PSI (because of the 125 max PSI cartidge pressure) then I would think the permeate flow could be lower then the .2 GPM minimum reading capbility of the LZT-1002-M. Rendering the flow meter somewhat useless.


Just My 2 cents, absolutly not from an expert, again if anybody would like to verify this it could be interresting to read other thaughts from experienced RO users.

Some people tell me I tend to think too much before doing a project, and they verry might be right, I admire people that sometimes just decide to go with it. So please keep us in touch with the developpements and possibly the results from the setup.

Thanks

With all do respect....
I Have not gone into this without lots of planning and research. I am not going to return anything from the advise I have received. I have analyzed it and rejected some of it. The example above, of the filter rating is an example of flawed analysis. To my knowledge, all RO's have a filter on the low pressure side of the system, and would never see pressures over 20-40 psi I think.
I appreciate the input, but like so many things in life, we must weed out the bad information, lest we be led down the golden path.

Thanks,

Eric

[sugarphil]

Thinking of my last post about the sediment filter, I didnt realise youd probably put it between the low pressure feed pump and the Procon so if you do it like that then it's max pressure rating whouldnt be your pressure limiting factor.

I would think the limiting component would probably be some connection fiting or something so I suggest you keep that factor in mind when thinking about the connections between high pressure components.

[bowhunter]

You won't burn the motor up. The overloads will just trip if the pressure runs too high. You can probably make it work at some level, but the performance would have been much better with membranes rated at 70-100 psi vs. 225 psi. Permeation flow with cold sap is really low. Maybe only 25% at the rated pressure. I would return the membranes and get something rated at 70-100 psi. The membranes are such a problem that you've taken a system that should be able to process over 150 gallons per hour with an NF 270 membrane and derated it to 30 gallons per hour.

As for the fouling, the TSD meter won't really do you much good. The fouling comes from higher concentrations of high molecular weight sugars. If the flows are too low the fouling will be so rapid the systems won't run long between cleaning...maybe only 2-3 hours.

Make sure you run all the permeate back through the membranes after each day to flush out the membrane and minimize cleaning frequency.

[sugarphil]

i've worked with pool/spa equipement and If I remember well, a lot of pumps use 56c frames (I would need to recheck that). I think with a bit of luck on Craigslist and some thinkering you could easily fetch a cheap 1+ hp there. Of course youl need to fit an approriate adapter/coupler to such a motor.

[mkoehler79]

Eric,
I have also ordered two of the MES (4040 MS1) Membranes for my very similar Homemade RO project and understand them to be on the same performance level as an XLE-4040 in regards to pressure (spec sheets says 125 psi for test condition). I believe these will be very similar in performance to the "lower pressure" membranes. Here is the link to the data sheet for membranes I have purchased: http://www.mapleexperts.com/4040%20M...heet-final.pdf

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Thinking of my last post about the sediment filter, I didnt realise youd probably put it between the low pressure feed pump and the Procon so if you do it like that then it's max pressure rating whouldnt be your pressure limiting factor.

I would think the limiting component would probably be some connection fiting or something so I suggest you keep that factor in mind when thinking about the connections between high pressure components.

I am going to order a high press cutout switch.

Another big factor in my pressure and flow limitations with the 3/4 HP, is the fact that I have a feed pump that will help things along. The Procon will have a helper! I believe I remember reading this before in my research. I am going to stick with what I have, and see what happens.

[Clinkis]

I run my single XLE 4040 with 190 gph procon pump with no pressure relief. XLE are an excellent membrane for sap but they do need higher pressure then NF membranes so you usually don't want any pressure releif on your pump. I run mine at 250-275 psi and it works excellent. Without recirculating I can process approx 150 gph of raw sap and remove around 30% of the water. With recirculation I can get up to 80% water removal but my gph drops to 50 gph. If you are running below 200psi your performance will be much lower especially when you get to higher concentration.

[bowhunter]

You should check a couple of things before you to go ahead and build it. 1) Determine which MES membrane you have. If it's rated at 225 psi you need to buy lower pressure membranes. The 225 psi membrane are called high rejection membranes and are designed to polish water to very high purities. They are not good for the lower pressure RO's. 2)Verify the design pressure for the membrane housings. Most of them, even stainless steel, are not rate above 250 psi. This could be a problem when using a booster pump with the ProCon pump.

Remember if your membrane is one of the high rejection membranes rated at 225 psi, the capacity will be really low on cold sap. This type membrane is the worst membrane for sap processing at pressures below 400 psi.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

You should check a couple of things before you to go ahead and build it. 1) Determine which MES membrane you have. If it's rated at 225 psi you need to buy lower pressure membranes. The 225 psi membrane are called high rejection membranes and are designed to polish water to very high purities. They are not good for the lower pressure RO's. 2)Verify the design pressure for the membrane housings. Most of them, even stainless steel, are not rate above 250 psi. This could be a problem when using a booster pump with the ProCon pump.

Remember if your membrane is one of the high rejection membranes rated at 225 psi, the capacity will be really low on cold sap. This type membrane is the worst membrane for sap processing at pressures below 400 psi.

Where did you get this information? I would like to research this further. I checked all their spec sheets and nothing is tested over 150psi. MES (Maple Expert Solutions) makes RO's and all there small "MES DOLLY" RO's are tested at 125 PSI. I am sure that this is the membranes I got from Clayton when I met him in Henniker, NH. Two for $430 "out the door".
I bought the MES 4040 MS1, and they are tested at 125psi
http://mapleexperts.com/4040%20MS1%2...heet-final.pdf
The more I look, the better I feel. The Dow Filmtec XLE-4040 is tested at 145psi, and gets a 2600gpd flow. The 4040 MS1 is tested at 125 psi and gets a higher flow rate at 2900gpd at the same temperatures.
MES DOLLY info...
http://mapleexperts.com/Products.html
DOLLY spec sheet... http://mapleexperts.com/MESDollySpecSheets.pdf

Thanks for the heads up. I checked my $99.99 housings delivered to my door. Labeled, rated at 300psi

[bowhunter]

I agree with your assessment. I'm not familiar with their membranes and someone had posted the rating pressure as 225psi which would be fine for a high pressure RO system. They are still much lower capacity than the nano filtration membranes. You should operate the system on sap at about 2 times the capacity rated pressure. So if the membrane is rate for 125 psi, 250 psi is about the right operating pressure.

Vendors play all kinds of games with the capacity numbers using different rating pressures. Generally speaking the price of the membrane tells you a lot about the capacity. The higher the price the higher the capacity. A membrane rated at 125 psi has much lower capacity than a membrane rated at 70 psi. As an example I just ran your membrane through my capacity model and compared it to a Filmtec NF270 rated at 2500 GPD at 70 psi. Using 2.2% sap, 40 Degree F and 200 psi. Your MES membrane has the capacity to remove 70% of the water from 66 gallons per hour of sap. The NF270 has the capacity to remove 70% of the water from 111 gallons per hour of sap. The NF 270 has 68% more capacity for the same size membrane under the same conditions. This means you would probably have to add a second membrane in series to match the NF270 capacity at the same operating conditions.

Good luck with your build. Your RO will function ok, but it has more capacity if you elect to go with another membrane.