+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567
Results 61 to 69 of 69

Thread: Lifters or ladders

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Potter County, PA
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Vacuum doesn't transfer well through liquid. Probably still need more star lifts.
    2008 4 buckets
    ~
    2016 1300 vac tubing
    18x24 sugar shack
    2x6 Grimm Lightning w/preheater on natural gas
    7" full bank press
    CDL 600 RO
    2000 Sonoma w/ 200gal tank
    2003 Duramax w/ 500 gal tank
    2 sap guzzling kids
    very patient wife!

    Same ol' addiction

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Hoosick Falls
    Posts
    2,000

    Default

    send me a pm, I think I am missing something in your design.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Uxbridge, Ontario
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Hello all,

    I have a question for my sap ladder, this last year was my first experience with one and I was some what disappointed with the results.

    There are about 550 taps on the far side of the bush that I have to lift up a steep hill to get flowing down to the pump house, its about a 38' hill and I have two 20' sap ladders to get up and over (its pretty steep - 38' rise over about 100 feet). Each ladder has two 1/2" risers. At the base of the lower ladder, I have an injector/drain that I use to control the flow, its just a 3/4" valve. I would have it open the tinniest amount and that would work well - I had to find the optimum where not enough air would result in sap overwhelming the ladder and stalling it vs. letting in too much air. We run really strong vacuum in the bush around 27" (when I come back from leak checking and everything is tight). The best I got past the ladder was 12" and typically I was getting 7". I would really like to improve this for next year, ideally getting perfect vacuum up there as well. At the bottom of the ladder, I have two 3/4" mainlines and one 1" mainline and at the top I have 1 1/4" dry line and a 3/4" wet. There is no vacuum transfer from the top to the bottom

    My first question is what I did wrong, and how can I make the current system work better?
    I have a few ideas on why it wasn't working well - I dont have enough risers, the rise of 20' is too much for the ladder, I need a vacuum transfer line, or 1/2" is not the way to go, although some have had success with it. I am also worried that if I add a vacuum transfer line, not enough air would get into the ladder to move the sap.

    My Second question is about how I could make 5/16" work with a slight modification to typical designs.
    Right now, I am thinking to use 5/16s and stars to get it working. The rule of thumb is about 1 star per 50 for about 11 stars which is an enormous amount, but if it is what gets the job done then so be it. (Two ladder at 22 stars each - 44 altogether), I would add in a vacuum transfer line as well.
    Understanding that the primary mechanism for sap ladders is air push sap up through the risers, I was thinking that I could place an injector into each 5/16 riser, this insures that all the injected air goes into the risers and not into the vacuum transfer line. I would install the injectors using a tee on each riser, from there the injectors would collect into another set of stars which would connect into a manifold on which I would put a valve to control air flow into the injectors. By doing this, I could really maximize the efficiency of the injected air and I could probably get away with far fewer stars - perhaps 4 or 5. Has anyone tried this before?

    Ben, you mentioned that you have a CFM tester - what do you use? We have a rotameter that can measure vacuum pumps between 10 and 100 CFM, but it must be vertical to work - A little impractical for mainlines.

    Thanks for your input,
    Tony
    PCFarms - Producer of Maple Syrup and Distributor for H2O and DSD
    2019 - 30,300 taps
    2020 - 34,000 taps
    2021 - 38,000 Maple taps, 1000 birch taps

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Cayuta NY
    Posts
    776

    Default

    I am not one to typically recommend buying a factory built option, but for the number of taps and the height you want to lift I would recommend going with one of CDL's sap lifters. The reason being it has a float to trip and lift the sap so you dont need the constant leak in the system.
    Jeff

    470 taps
    Torr Vac TV40D High Vac with Lapierre Horizontal releaser
    Leader 2x6 Patriot raised flue
    Leader 2x4 Steamaway
    Wildfire arch
    MES Dolly 300 3 post RO
    DG 7" 5 bank filter press
    and still lookin to get bigger

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bristol, VT
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    The fundamental question is what is your goal with those 550 taps? Are you just trying to grab some extra sap or do you want to maximize production?

    There is no way you will achieve 27" after a series of ladder with that height of lift, regardless of what anyone tells you, so if that is actually your goal you may want to consider pumping the sap out of there. If you are willing to sacrifice a little vacuum, you could consider reverse slope releasers or sap lifters.

    Or if you are happy with a moderate to considerable loss of vacuum (as you experienced) you could possibly modify your ladders to work more effectively.

    Using air to move sap uphill will always be more inefficient than pumping it.
    About 750 taps on High Vac.
    2.5 x 8 Intens-O-Fire
    Airtech 3 hp LR Pump
    Springtech Elite 500 RO
    14 x 24 Timber Frame SugarHouse
    16 x 22 Sap Shed w/ 1500 gal. + 700 gal. tanks
    www.littlehogbackfarm.com

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    eastern ontario- Williamstown
    Posts
    86

    Default

    how far is your lifter from pump? do you have a vacuum gauge at the top of lifter? 2 half inch risers are not enough for 550 taps. vacuum transfer line will not work very well as sap will try to climb the line. I think you just need a couple more risers and try and keep each lift around 12' max. I also have better luck with the air injection a couple feet back from the lifter, I use a multi fitting with a 5/16 needle valve.

    I lift 800 taps with 4-1inch risers, still getting some bugs out, my problem is not enough cfm at top of ladder (1500' from pump), running a new 1 1/4 wet/dry line to the lifter this fall will hopefully fix that.

    hope this Helps

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Hoosick Falls
    Posts
    2,000

    Default

    Tony, In my experience with working with ladders for the last 4 decades is it is all in the design and setup.
    Some will say they don't work but many also thought the world was flat at one time also.

    My tallest ladder is 18' and I will not build another that is taller than 16'. In few seasons we will be going over a 50' cliff. This will be accomplished by using 4 ladders that will be connected to a 1" x 1" Wet/Dry line on the highest ladder thru a 2" pvc manifold. I only use 1/8" brass needle valves for injectors of micro bubbles and they need to be placed so that the bubbles are in the feeder line back at least 50' from the ladder. When located to close to the ladder the affect is large bubbles entering the ladder and blocking the sap flow to the ladder. This new setup will only need 1 injector as there will be no new taps entering the system between ladders.

    I like a 2% slope to the feeder line so that it will drain to the ladder efficiently.

    1/2" risers have worked the best for my and I have tried 5/16, 1/2, 3/4, & 1". 1/2" had the best efficiency of flow rate, thawed quickest in side by side trials, and ran the longest before freezing.

    To have 10" or less after a ladder there has to be a pool of sap in the feeder line of the ladder or the ladder is stalled. The drain at the bottom of the ladder was a tool I used about 3 years ago and have removed from all 10 of my current ladders. I found they were a waste of time and a location that a fatal leak issue could occur at.

    My CFM tester is a Delaval CFM tester. It is a pump tester that has a built in vac gauge. The rotameter would work if you could build a pvc tube adapter and instll a vac gauge and a valve to adjust the flow into the tube inorder to change the vac reading.vacuum tester on sp-11-4.jpg

    Remember that a ladder is applied science...if you apply a force at the wrong spot the science will fail.

    Depending on your pump and distances we should be able to get you to 25 past the ladders. I do 24 after 7 ladders in series. Looking to better that with a new manifold install in the future.

    I can get you going and you will be pleased at the results. If you search other ladder posts you will see other pics of my ladders and the manifolds I build. I cant build you one but happy to show the pics of how to do it. On the 1/2" risers there are a few tricks to get good balance on the risers but that will have to wait for another time.

    I am currently limited by my nuro doc on my pc useage but I get a couple hours a day now. Got hit just over a month ago by a drunk that thought he could drive a car after drinking 25 beers in 8 hours. Our bush may be taking a back seat this season if I don't get the doc's approval. lifting only 20# by Dec 1 isn't going to cut it, but every day above the grass is a good day! But concussions are nothing to mess with.

    Ben

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Uxbridge, Ontario
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Thanks for the responses, I think i will stick to the 1/2" risers and add a few more. How many would you put in for 550 taps?
    In regards to the height of individual ladders - could I split my 20' ladders into two and keep them in the same location? So 10" and half way up I put in a manifold to split it up?

    The ladder is about 1000' from the vacuum system, but the 1 1/4" dry should be fine for it.

    Ben - hope you get better before the season! I cant imagine sitting it out
    PCFarms - Producer of Maple Syrup and Distributor for H2O and DSD
    2019 - 30,300 taps
    2020 - 34,000 taps
    2021 - 38,000 Maple taps, 1000 birch taps

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Hoosick Falls
    Posts
    2,000

    Default

    Thanks! Has to listen to the nuro doc and limit pc use for a bit.

    the length of the rise is the issue. The taller the rise of the ladder the more sap that clings to the side of the pipe and you lose efficiency.
    The other killer is an elbow at the top. I build the manifold so that I use an insert into the off center of the bottom of the manifold. One in the center and the other 4 for a 1" feeder are staggered around the bottom 1/4 or so of the manifold. This way there is no sap pooling over the riser opening.

    When the rapid flowing sap hits the elbow a good part of it will slide back down the riser. Adding more on top of the next bubble.

    I have a glass ladder in the sugar house and have changed my manifold designs from learning from this ladder.

    The amount of air that is needed to run a ladder is very small to non if you have a leak in the system.

    Injected air expands tremendously when it gets into a high vacuum situation.

    Send me a pm.

    Ben

+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts