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Thread: number of taps on a wet dry system?

  1. #1
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    Default number of taps on a wet dry system?

    How many taps can a wet dry system with 3/4" wet and 1" Dry handle both ideally and just getting by maxing out the system? just curiuos to see if I need to go slightly bigger or not.
    may your sap be at 3%
    Brad

    www.willowcreeksugarhouse.com
    585 or so on Vacuum, about 35 on buckets/sap sacs
    Atlas Copco GVS 25A Rotary Vane vacuum pump
    MES horizontal electric releaser
    2x6 ss phaneuf Drop flue, Leader woodsaver blower, homemade hood
    300gph H2O RO
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    Its Here!!! 2024 season is here get busy!!!

  2. #2
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    Depends upon your slope, length of wet/dry lines, layout and length of lateral mainlines, and how conservative you want to be. I have about 350 on a 1" wet and dry line at 500' length with 6 lateral mainlines and will likely max that section out at 400- 450 taps, but I like things oversized. Slope is 1-3%.

    By the line loss charts, even with decent slope, a 3/4 inch line is maxed at 250 taps without a dry line at 500'. A dry line will help, so probably 500 taps at 500'.
    About 750 taps on High Vac.
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  3. #3
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    I was provided with a simple chart from Steve Childs. Provide the length of the run and the minimum slope of the line and I can tell you the number of taps the dry line can support and the maximum tap capacity of the mainline relative to peak flow. The minimum slope is the transfer bottle neck so if you have 6%on the majority but only 2% near the collection point there is your bottle neck and limiting factor. Even if he flattest area is only 50 feet it is a major limitation.

    I will also need to know the size of the pump...if you have a pump that is only 3 cfm at your desired vacuum level, this too will affect your maximum tap count.

    Ben

  4. #4
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    The distance of your dry line and the size of your pump will be your main design constrant. Your total dry line length needs to include the distance from your pump to the extractor, then to your taps, a 90 degree connector adds about 25' to your total distance for each 90 you use. For example I have an 8cfm pump and then 1200' of dry line( 500to the releaser and 700 to the taps. I used the charts and I believe is said I should have 6cfm at the end of the line. So if you figure 1cfm per hundred taps you could technically do 600 taps.
    Jeff

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  5. #5
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    607 is correct if you are using the same size pipe to connect your pump to your releaser. Since many people have more than one line connected to the releaser currently, or plan future expansion, it is best to connect the pump thru a 3" or even 4" pvc line...provided you are not going long distances, but that is another topic.

    90 degree elbows do add some frictional losses and is the reason for using the sweep elbows or better yet, is the use of a 6" straight section between two 45 elbows to make a 90 turn which has minute affects on transferal rates in highly viscous fluids so for air transfer, it will be none, as would a sweeping bend of the main line that can be accomplished by using two tension grips to a single anchor point.
    Maple Tubing 003.jpg

    The sheer size of the 3" is also beneficial as a balance tank if using a mechanical releaser. The balance tank will minimize the duration of the drop in vacuum level and reduce the chance of surges of the main line. Yet another thread.

    If looking at the Steve Child's original data chart, remember that it is for 1" line and you need to reduce the numbers by the volume differential and not the size differential of the two pipes. size of a 3/4" is 75% of a 1", volume differential is 56% as I recall.

    The math can be a trick thing.

  6. #6
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    holy geez.... I was just looking to see if I could get away with 600 taps before I need to go bigger.

    I had a big pump. 19CFM so its way bigger than I need but it was pretty cheap and it runs like a champ on a 1 HP motor. (Retired lab vaccuum) I have 1.5" PVC going only 10 feet from the pump to the releaser and there are I think 3 90's in there. as well as a moisture trap of course. I have a very flat area there is some slope on some of it but the majority is pretty flat at 1-1.5% slope. the first verticle side mains start about 75ft from the releaser and that first 75ft is 1 inch after that its 3/4inch. and like I said 1 inch dry above that. so they are pretty close I could probably even run those first 75 directly into the releaser whci I might do this year it has 75+- taps on it. the entire wet dry mainline system is roughly 400 feet long as the property is MUCH wider than it is long. There are 5 side mains all 3/4 inch the most on any of them is 150 taps which is fine.

    There are a couple of sap ladders in there too but still averaging 26.5" Hg at the releaser at each tie point for the side mains and generally a slight loss of less than 1" hg at the ends of the lines with the ladder on them. I would love to get rid of the sap ladders but like I said its pretty flat.

    I have approx 500 taps on it now and last year was NOT a good year to measure a full good run for obvious cold reasons. never got any REALLY good runs last year.

    So thats it. what do you all think.
    Last edited by red maples; 09-25-2014 at 12:01 PM.
    may your sap be at 3%
    Brad

    www.willowcreeksugarhouse.com
    585 or so on Vacuum, about 35 on buckets/sap sacs
    Atlas Copco GVS 25A Rotary Vane vacuum pump
    MES horizontal electric releaser
    2x6 ss phaneuf Drop flue, Leader woodsaver blower, homemade hood
    300gph H2O RO
    husquvarna 562 XP
    Its Here!!! 2024 season is here get busy!!!

  7. #7
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    You should be fine with with 600 taps with 3/4 wet and 1" dry. I checked it in the Steve Childs book just because I was curious. I think it said with 3/4" wet and 1" dry it was good for over 600 taps up to 2900' something like that. From what you said as far as vacuum loss I think you have plenty of pump. As you said the 75 you could maybe run right to the releaser which you would only need 1 line no need for a dry. I have 2 lines I did that way one has 130 ish no problem. No need to over complicate the problem.
    Jared

  8. #8
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    Brad,
    I will do the math out so it will be easy for you to check at your main line junctions; if you are concerned about capacity or where you will need to expand for future growth.

    A 19 cfm pump will transfer 11 cfm at the end of the 1" Line 400', at 300' = 12, at 200' = 14, and 17 cfm at 100'.

    Since you used the 1.5" to the releaser and the moisture trap will act as a balance tank you have given yourself a leg up.

    Tap capacity of the dry line is 980 on your 1" line at the 400'.

    Now this is where we run into to the problem. The Gallons per Hour (GPH) flow rate of a 3/4" line is 195 gallons at 2% slope. I hope your closer to the 1.5% slope than the 1%. If closer to 1% your capacity will be around 100 GPH and 143 for 1.5%.

    The peak flow of the taps is .2 GPH per tap or .2*600 or 120 GPH. But don't panic!

    Since you have the dry line and the capacity for vacuum is an excess to your requirements. The dry line will carry the excessive peak flow. GPH for the 1" on 2% slope is 330. so around 170 for 1% slope. The 20 GPH overage of the 3/4" is only about 12% of the 1" capacity so you should be fine on cfm transfer on the dry line.

    If you whip in your lateral lines to the W/D system part or possible a majority of the last laterial will transfer to the dry line during your peak runs.

    One trick would be to use a 3" pvc vertical manifold on some of your further distal laterals. Reason for this is to transfer some of the vacuum to the wet line from the dry line and increase the cfm numbers past the point that the wet line is at maximum capacity. Remember a line full of sap has low vacuum transfer capabilities when compared to an empty line.

    YOur observation on ladders is spot on. On my 7 ladder mainline with 112' of risers my vacuum is not affect much from the releaser to the last ladder. The CFM is definitely reduced after the 3rd ladder. To counter act this I added a dry line to the system to past ladder #3. I solved the issue but then I doubled the taps on the line and am back to adding an additional wet line. This one will be blue so that I can lower the sap temp. This line runs along a brook for 1000' and crosses in one location. Over the brook it freezes 45 minutes before the bush stops, on average; thus to get the system thawed faster I am forced to run black mains on the last 600' before the sap enters the sugar house. Ladders also raise your sap temp slightly since they are located in the sun for quicker thaw times. Blue is also easier to monitor ladder performance so I have started adding a blue section just prior to the ladder. I cant fly a line larger than 1" due to the lake of a good way to lash it at my elevations. I might have a cure for that thanks to a friend that retired from AT&T. A Lasher and a 75' rope would be a great investment but they are rather pricey used even.

    I have a new ladder design that should have the ladders flowing at speeds and efficiency of the mains and have less affects on cfm. It has worked well in a test and next season will be the field trial.

    So as long as you are watching your flow and vac levels past the ladders you will be ok, but very tight on line capacity and with vac transfer if the dry line runs more than 20% full.

    I have a few other tricks that can help if you run into an issue.

    Best wishes!

    Ben
    Last edited by BreezyHill; 09-25-2014 at 08:45 PM. Reason: put minute not hour

  9. #9
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    Breezy,

    Your saying that 600 taps will run at 120 gpm during peak flow? There is no way this is possible.
    Neil

  10. #10
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    Good catch Neil! Thanks
    Ben

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