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Thread: Logging the Sugarbush

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sunapee, NH
    Posts
    155

    Default Don't hate on the loggers!

    Its so sad to see that just a couple of bad people have ruined my industry. I am a sugar maker and a logger. It truly makes me sad that people have gotten screwed over by the crooks of our industry. There are good honest loggers out there that want to do the right thing for the forest, do as little damage as possible, and make money for the land owner. I would not recommend hiring a company with a chipper. When you drag whole trees, and when I say whole trees, think about large oak trees being dragged through the woods and having the crowns hit everything on the way out. There is too much residual damage done in a whole tree chipping operation. Small chainsaw operations with a cable or grapple work well, they can snake out trees without going to every single stump. They leave the brush in the trails and in the woods to help compaction and keep the nutrients in the woods. Another style of cutting that I have seen a couple of sugar makers use is a cut to length operation. These types of operations can be minimally invasive to the woods. The trees are cut and processed in the woods and hauled out by a forwarder. All of the brush and tops are laid down in the trails so there is very little compaction to the woods roads. Also the forwarder can pick up the tops and brush when they are done with trails and fill in wet or soft spots to prevent mud holes from starting.

    It is also a good idea if you don't know or trust any loggers to hire a forester, especially one that has done sugarbush thinnings before. Dont hire the first one you find, interview a couple. Good luck, and don't hate loggers!
    Harding Hill Farm
    2650 taps
    3rd Generation Sugar Maker with a Chocolate Lab named Acer

    http://www.hardinghillfarm.com
    www.facebook.com/hardinghillfarmnh

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Russell, NY
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Definitely hire a logger and log in the winter when the bark is tight to the tree !! If you log in spring, summer o fall, the bark will get rubbed off from skidding next to precious maples
    2014 - 20X24 sugarhouse, 2X10 Leader Vortex w/ steam pan, 400 buckets
    2013 - 400 buckets - halves on sap
    2012 - 300 buckets - halves on sap
    2011 - 200 buckets - halves on sap
    THANX DAD !!

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Andover NH
    Posts
    2,074

    Default

    I will put my disclaimer right out front. I spent 10 years as a professional logger in NH, and still work in the forestry industry in NH. I treated landowners fairly and worked with them to meet or exceed their expectations. And at 160 lbs, not sure how far you could throw me...

    a word of caution about hiring a forester in Vermont. Vermont does not have any forester licensing requirements, and so anyone can hang their shingle out and call themselves a forester. Defininetly check references and check out past jobs that he or she has overseen. I am sure there are foresters and loggers in Vermont who have done very good work in sugarbushes, but I can provide references of a very good forester from SW NH who has done a ton of work for 10K and 60K tap operations. He may not want to oversee a job in Duxbury Vt but I think he would be willing to be part of the marking and layout process.

    also consider having a UVM Cooperative Extension County forester walk you woodlot if you have not done so already. They can be an excellent source of information. In NH, I refer to Cooperative extension foresters as the "gateway drug" to the forest products industry as they often get landowners who might not otherwise consider doing active forest management to think about doing a harvest for firewood, income generation, wildlife, or sugarbush management.

    and I would also caution you from making general statements about the trust-worthyness (and size) of loggers. There are many very professional operations around the Northeast that do excellent work and meet or exceed the landowners goals and expectations. They go about their business everyday and you rarely hear about their satisfied clients. Like every industry - teachers, lawyers, politicians, etc. - the ones who do poor work and violate the laws are the ones you hear about in the newspaper.
    Eric Johnson
    Tucker Mountain Maple Co-op
    1400 taps in 2013
    2.5 x 8 CDL pellet arch and Smokey Lake pans
    Lapierre 600 RO
    Member of Andover/Salisbury Maplehaulics anonymous
    www.tuckermtn.com
    pALS

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bristol, VT
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    Great advice here. I would also suggest contacting the UVM extension and having one of their foresters walk the woods with you. The more you can educate yourself about what is going on in your woods and the assets you actually have, the better off you will be in the long run. I would also suggest contacting the Chittenden County forester for recommendations for contracting foresters and loggers. It is true that in VT you do not need to be certified to practice forestry, but the county foresters are very experienced and will have good recommendations.

    I am in a similar situation presently as we are planning to have some logging done this fall to harvest some hemlock, ash and oak for building material for our future home. Fortunately my wife is a forester, but unfortunately the logger we were hoping to have do the job just retired. He used a forwarder and chainsaw and had an excellent reputation. We are having another guy with a skidder come look at the job as he has good references as well.

    I would also suggest being careful with chipper operations. I have seen several sugarbush thinnings in the area where they took every tree but a maple and chipped all the tops and anything not a saw log. It looked clean except for all the skidding scars and the associated erosion, but is probably not the best outcome for the land owner. One school of thought in forest ecology is a clean logging job is a bad logging job as you should see all the slash and tops left in the woods to enrich the soil. I think the suggestion of using a cable skidder in a sugarbush is good. Cut to length systems are good as well but can be hard to find. Maintaining at least 25% non maple is a good idea for disease and pest resistance.
    About 750 taps on High Vac.
    2.5 x 8 Intens-O-Fire
    Airtech 3 hp LR Pump
    Springtech Elite 500 RO
    14 x 24 Timber Frame SugarHouse
    16 x 22 Sap Shed w/ 1500 gal. + 700 gal. tanks
    www.littlehogbackfarm.com

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Athol, NY
    Posts
    219

    Default

    I agree with Sugaringman85, we shouldn't be bashing all loggers because of a few bad ones. That said, to me the issue is less about honesty and more about the potential damage to your sugarbush. You can find an honest logger, but can you find one that is willing to take the time necessary to do the job you need done? Many loggers can do a good job logging, but a sugarbush shouldn't be viewed as a log job. To a commercial logger time is money and they have bills to pay. They can't always afford to do the things that are required to avoid residual damage to your stand. Taking the time to fall trees where they will cause the least damage and then taking the time to skid things without running over or close to other trees is a large part of what makes for a good job. Sometimes you have to work around a 6" maple that's the future of your bush rather than run over it to get to a tree you want. Sometimes you've got to buck up a tree in the woods to avoid skidding damage. A logger who works by himself with a small cable skidder can do it if you make a deal with him that makes it worth it. A small dozer on frozen ground can be effective also. The best though is a horse logging operation. They're hard to find though and it takes more time. Definitely do it when the ground is frozen or at least dry. Also, the bark on maples stops slipping by the end of June, so I wouldn't worry about that after that point. Lastly, find a forester that has experience with sugaring. Not every forester does and the approach isn't the same as for timber management. Good luck.


    Randy

    Toad Hill Maple Farm

    http://ToadHillMaple.com/

    3650 Taps on Vacuum for 2010 & still expanding
    56'x64' Timberframe Sugarhouse - New for 2011
    3x10 Leader Vortex w/ Max Flue Pan & SteamAway
    1000 gph Leader Springtech RO
    777 Acres in the Adirondack Mountains

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Duxbury, VT
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Let me start with clarifying that I don't think all loggers are bad. They are no different than a sugarmaker in many ways. Just like a sugarmaker, they love to be in the woods. Except when they see a giant Maple, they see money in cutting the tree, where I see money in keeping the tree. Also, I was joking about how far I could throw a logger. Of course I am a big guy, so I could throw 160 lbs at least 5-10 ft.

    I have had some bad experiences personally with a logger where I said don't cut this, and then to come back the next day and those trees are gone. Just hard to stop someone when they only see $$ signs.

    I like the idea of using UVM and seeking a licensed Forester with experience in sugarbush management.

    I was at my friends again today where his logging operation with full tree removal is going on. The woods are clean, but as many have pointed out, the trees were scared and the forest floor looked in pain. Bare and ready for erosion.

    Being that I'm in no hurry, maybe I can wait til the winter. By then I can get the right forester and logging operation set up.

    Great advice, and no offense meant to you loggers out there.

    Ben

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    somerset county, pa
    Posts
    189

    Default

    After my woods was thinned out, I rented a Bobcat with a forestry mulcher to mulch the tops. I didn't have the issue of dragging the tops out with this method, and it left the mulch in the woods where it was needed. If you have a lot of rocks, it may not work well. I am going to be renting one again in a few weeks. you can view a forestry mulcher in action on youtube.
    Jeremy
    Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp
    Somerset County, PA
    22000 taps on vacuum and counting
    4x14 Leader Max pans oil fired with steam-away, 2-1000gph RO's, 2-4000gph RO's

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Andover NH
    Posts
    2,074

    Default

    to follow up on Toad Hill's comments, I did a job for a fellow Trader in his sugarbush with the tubing up and we agreed on a per hour rate for my services (hand cutting, cable skidder). Worked for me as I couldn't get the usual production working around mainline, etc. The sale of the logs more than paid for my services so I think everyone won on that one...

    and yes to buffalo creeks suggestion as well - I used to run a tracked skid-steer with a Fecon mower. You could rent one and mulch tops along where you plan to run lines in your bush. But it doesn't like rocks too much...
    But if you are working with CTL a lot of the slash gets run over and compacted so you are ahead of the game there...
    Eric Johnson
    Tucker Mountain Maple Co-op
    1400 taps in 2013
    2.5 x 8 CDL pellet arch and Smokey Lake pans
    Lapierre 600 RO
    Member of Andover/Salisbury Maplehaulics anonymous
    www.tuckermtn.com
    pALS

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lyman, NH
    Posts
    2,311

    Default

    Actually, Eric, that's the way I had my sugarbush logged. I paid $80 per hour to a logger friend with his cable skidder. I ended up with 80 cords of firewood which I bucked up, split and sold. I also paid him $15 per thousand to deal with saw logs (cut them to length and set up the trucking to the mill). I paid the trucking got all the money from the mill for sawlogs.
    Last edited by PerryW; 06-10-2014 at 06:39 PM.
    2012: Probably 750 gravity taps and 50 buckets.

    600 gal stainless milk tank.
    2 - 100 gallon stock tanks
    one 30 gal barrel
    50 buckets

    3' x 10' Waterloo Raised Flue wood fired evaporator w/ open pans.

    12" x 20" Filter Canner

    Sawmill next to sugarhouse solves my sugarwood problem

    Gather with GMC 3500 2wd Pickup w/ 425 gallon Plastic Tank.

    Been tapping here in Lyman NH since 1989 but I've been sugaring since 8 years old in 1968.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oneida NY
    Posts
    11,547

    Default

    Another problem with leaving the woods clean is that there is little regeneration. New seedlings need physical protection to survive. A healthy woods has brush covering the ground. In the spaces among the brush where new growth seedlings sprout, far more survive because the deer and other critters don't eat as many. Once a young tree reaches a certain height, the critters generally don't eat the tops, but rather the tender tips off limbs. This allows the trees to grow up above hungry deer and such. A forest with little or no regrowth is an unhealthy woods. Those "clean" jobs are not good for the future of the forest.
    Dave Klish, I recently ordered a 2x6 wood fired evaporator from A&A Sheet Metal which I will be converting to oil fired
    Now have solar, 2x6 finish pan, 5 bank 7x7 filter press, large water jacketed bottler, and tankless water heater.
    Recently bought another Gingerich RO, this one was a 125, but a second membrane was added thus is a 250, like I had.
    After running a 2x3, a 2x6, 3x8 tapping from 79 taps up to 1320 all woodfired, now I'm going to a 2x6 oil fired and a 200-425 taps.

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