plastic Spiels

[NTBugtraq]

Despite the publications that I cited earlier (which got me to admit I was wrong for thinking the idea of replacing spiels was wrong), people think that the two Universities involved in studying this issue simply missed the dead simple idea of a pressure cooker. I get it, I too was incredulous when I first read this stuff...but come on, if there were a bunch of people working on a study about what works and what doesn't, do you really think they just missed something obvious?

NW Ohio...you missed adding the cost of the time it took you to put them in and take them out of the autoclave (labor), the cost of the electricity to get it to 121C (that's not 15 minutes worth, that's all the time up to when the 15 minutes starts). I'm not saying that adds up to $39 (+ S&H), but its more than $0.89. You have also done nothing to prove you've made a difference, and if so, how much difference? You've used your common sense to say; "I...believe the taps are good as new". Nice, glad you believe that...but people believed that simply rinsing them in warm/hot water was enough...but that's been proven wrong by the cited studies.

The studies proved (and other studies for uses other than maple taps, as cited by happy thoughts) heat is not enough, there must be agitation in order to break the biofilms surface. You might think, well hey, they're knocking around in the boiling water, so... Yup, you're right, they are, but is that doing any good? They're certainly bumping into the outside of each other, but the biofilm is largely on the inside...and if you could use something to agitate inside, then you'd have to wonder what it could do to the surface of the plastic spiel. Studies say that surfaces that are less smooth (such as micro-scratched plastic) are only going to gather an even greater amount of biofilm...so did you just make it worse?

So do this instead. Next year, on any tree you have 2 or more taps in, try replacing one spiel with a new one, and do whatever you want to the others...and do that again the next year (preferably always replacing the same spiel). If you can put those taps into 5 gallon pails on the ground via a drop line, you'll be able to measure the difference. You'll get your very own proof as to whether cleaning is as good as replacing or not.

For the $39 (+ S&H), which is maybe what, 5% or less of your operating expense?, I'd just accept the studied advice.

Cheers,
Russ

[SDdave]

No disrespect to anyone as everyone is entitled to their opinion. But here is my opinion...I'm going to pop some popcorn sit back and read some more. It's almost better than TV! And when this gets over I'll search radioactive sewage drums for sap storage, or tree farms, or...

SDdave

[NTBugtraq]

Dang, I did it again eh? Sorry.

[NW Ohio]

Autoclaving takes virtually no time. Mine is always set up. The labor is me dropping them in the pan, adding the water, closing the door and hitting run. An hour later (or when I get back to it) I pop the top and pull out the sterilized taps. My time spent as labor doing this would be doubled if I had to call Leader place the order and then unpack it upon arrival... ...therefor no consideration of the minimal time spent. My autoclave operates at 1250 Watts and takes less than an hour to heat up and complete a 30 minute cycle, so I'll add $0.10. Now, like I said I do this twice so I'll credit you that (actually not using a full gallon of water each time but 45 oz., one gallon could cover both runs and I would nearly have enough to do a third). Total expense < $0.89/season.

Autoclaving also creates virtually no agitation. The taps are not bouncing around in water, but instead sit on a tray in a second pan inside the autoclave, so there are no abrasions to the surface.

I'm simply asking (not trying to convince), is it effective? I know it works better for me if it is.

My studies are this: for years people have been reusing mason jars. Some of which may have had significant bacterial growth in them through previous use. We have had homemade apple sauce that spoils after being opened and then stored in the fridge for too long. We wash all of the jars in the dishwasher not taking the time to mechanically scrub them. But they basically get autoclaved when the next item gets canned. We have never had anything spoil after processing through a pressure cooker (until opened as I mentioned before). Shouldn't there be biofilms in those jars. Maybe they spoil faster if there are? I understand that these are glass and we am talking about plastic so there may be differences. I also understand that biofilms are more than just the bacteria that they contain, but also contain organic and inorganic material that might aid in the adhesion of new bacteria that could find their way into the tap hole (or Mason jar) in subsequent years. I just haven't seen a definitive statement about the effectiveness of autoclaving taps(not that it doesn't exist). Have these studies been done in relation to maple taps?

[NTBugtraq]

Since you haven't read the studies, I am not going to try and present them here. Uncle, you win.

[happy thoughts]

Autoclaving takes virtually no time. Mine is always set up. The labor is me dropping them in the pan, adding the water, closing the door and hitting run. An hour later (or when I get back to it) I pop the top and pull out the sterilized taps. My time spent as labor doing this would be doubled if I had to call Leader place the order and then unpack it upon arrival... ...therefor no consideration of the minimal time spent. My autoclave operates at 1250 Watts and takes less than an hour to heat up and complete a 30 minute cycle, so I'll add $0.10. Now, like I said I do this twice so I'll credit you that (actually not using a full gallon of water each time but 45 oz., one gallon could cover both runs and I would nearly have enough to do a third). Total expense < $0.89/season.

Autoclaving also creates virtually no agitation. The taps are not bouncing around in water, but instead sit on a tray in a second pan inside the autoclave, so there are no abrasions to the surface.

I'm simply asking (not trying to convince), is it effective. I know it works better for me if it is.

Interesting thoughts. If it works for you then go for it. Autoclaving would seem to me the best of all methods if you plan on reusing but the taps would still need to be thoroughly cleaned. Have you factored in the time doing that? Throwing them in a dishwasher may be effective for a mason jar but isn't going to do much for the inside of a spile.

My studies are this: for years people have been reusing mason jars. Some of which may have had significant bacterial growth in them through previous use. We have had homemade apple sauce that spoils after being opened and then stored in the fridge for too long. We wash all of the jars in the dishwasher not taking the time to mechanically scrub them. But they basically get autoclaved when the next item gets canned. We have never had anything spoil after processing through a pressure cooker (until opened as I mentioned before) Shouldn't there be biofilms in those jars. Maybe they spoil faster if there are? I understand that these are glass and we am talking about plastic so there may be differences. I also understand that biofilms are more than just the bacteria that they contain, but also contain organic and inorganic material that might aid in the adhesion of new bacteria that could find their way into the tap hole (or Mason jar) in subsequent years. I just haven't seen a definitive statement about the effectiveness of autoclaving taps(not that it doesn't exist). Have these studies been done?

I think comparing taps to mason jars is apples and oranges. A properly canned and sealed jar should not support microbial growth as the contents inside are either sterile, too acid or too highly osmotic. Taps are open to air and in use have a ready source of moisture and nutrients in an environment that readily supports microbial growth.

I am not sure whether autoclaving removes the actual biofilm matrix or just kills the organisms (and spores) that live in it. If some matrix remains I'd expect that would be a basis for faster future colonization. But again, the usual pre-sterilization process is to thoroughly clean before autoclaving. I'm not aware of any studies on autoclaving taps though Dr Tim may be able to answer if he isn't too swamped with what is probably the peak of his research season.

Now I'm joining SDdave and making some popcorn Want some?

Hope your season was a good one!

[NW Ohio]

Which studies are you referring to? The article that Happy Thoughts linked earlier in this thread is good, but it does not consider autoclaving. Probably because it is not practical in most "food processing environments." It is practical in my operation and could be helpful to others... ...if it works.

I can't find anything on the UV or Cornell sites that you linked specific to autoclaving.

In a thread that played out last month Dr. Perkins referred to autoclaving twice. He never said that it worked or it didn't. He did say that boiling drop lines "might be somewhat effective" but that it is impractical. In another statement he says that boiling in no longer used by hospitals for sterilization... ...they autoclave. Probably because it is more effective. Would it be more effective with maple spouts? Even though someone else asked if the 5/16" plastic Leader spouts could be autoclaved, nobody responded (though I waited with great anticipation that someone would, again I know they can be, I wanted someone to discuss effectiveness).

...and so my question remains. How effective is autoclaving on spouts?

I don't win because you say I do... ...I win if I can find a definitive answer to my question and it saves me $40-$50 per year. We all win if there is an answer.

[GeneralStark]

Autoclaving is better than doing nothing, but is still not as effective as using a new spout every year. There is no way you can kill all the microbes on a spout regardless of the material it is made of. Look at the medical industry, they rarely reuse anything.

Let's sum it up this way: 1. If you want to achieve the highest yields possible annually, use a new spout every season. 2. If you don't mind some reduction in yields, use some cleaning method like boiling, sanitizing or autoclaving annually. (but this will not achieve the results of using method #1) 3. If you don't really care about your yields, keep using the same spouts every year, and don't bother cleaning them or replacing them.

[DrTimPerkins]

How effective is autoclaving on spouts?

Although it has not been studied directly (it isn't practical for most producers) autoclaving (of metal spouts) would be very effective (assuming the temperatures, pressures, and cycle time were adequate). However sterilizing (by autoclave) would not remove any surface debris, so there would likely be residue that microbes could quickly become established on and grow.

I wouldn't try it with plastic spouts though.