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Thread: Selling Sap

  1. #21
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    The numbers work out when your a large producer, not so much when you have a few thousand taps. We've spoken to a number of large producers in Franklin county and it's a completely different economic equation in the county compared to the county we live in. If we could get Spud's price for our sap, I'd gladly convert to just selling sap but the demand is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walling's Maple Syrup View Post
    $8.00 per gallon is the gross figure before you take out boiling expenses(fuel consumption, electricity, manpower if you are paying someone, wear and tear on equipment, trucking to get the finished product to buyer....)the list goes on and on. By the time you are done it wouldn't be worth it- at least not for me. That being said, if you are getting that much for your sap, that is great. If I was in that situation, that is what I would do as well.
    Neil
    3x10 Leader Inferno Arch
    14,200 Taps
    2 - 14 HP Indiana Vacuum pump
    1800gph Lapierre RO
    10" Lapierre filter press
    2 - 25,000 tap Lapierre releasers
    3 - SS 1500 gallon tanks
    1 - SS 8,400 gallon tank
    8x8 Argo ATV
    50k John Deere generator


    24'x32' sugarhouse

  2. #22
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    Feb 2011
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    I don't know if this sugarmaker is buying sap but it seems close enough to you to possibly take a drive and ask. Sorry I don't know the name or exact address but they are on Rt 42 and Meyers rd between 239 and 220. They have to be making a lot of syrup because the wood piles I've seen there are phenomenal. There is a sign posted on 42 near the operation. They may be able to direct you to someone else who might be buying in the area if they themselves are not buying. You could also ask the nearest maple association such as Endless mountains, Northeastern, and tioga-potter . Contact info is here:
    http://pamapleassociation.com/members-endless.html

    Also call or emaill your local ag extension office. Dr Robt Hansen oversees the maple operations and is located in Towanda.
    “A sap-run is the sweet good-bye of winter. It is the fruit of the equal marriage of the sun and frost.”
    ~John Burroughs, "Signs and Seasons", 1886

    backyard mapler since 2006 using anything to get the job done from wood stove to camp stove to even crockpots.
    2012- moved up to a 2 pan block arch
    2013- plan to add another hotel pan and shoot for 5-6 gallons
    Thinking small is best for me so probably won't get any bigger.

  3. #23
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    Spud- super glad you get a good price for your sap. In Windham county prices like that are not the norm either.
    Things are worth what someone is willing to pay. I buy sap based on Bascoms prices and add $.05/ gal for delivery.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryFamily View Post
    Things are worth what someone is willing to pay.
    And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

  5. #25
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    Wow has this thread changed. What Spud is saying makes very good sense even if maybe the price is more than one is willing to pay. In my own situation I was doing split last season where the producer was getting 60%. Interesting because some the same things come to mind when you talk about the producer being glad to get sap from someone who spends a lot of time in the woods making sure things are done right where at their own place maybe the crew is not quite up to par. Then there is the producer who says how they can't possibly do better than the deal they are because of the cost to make syrup which is interesting. When a producer is set up with an RO and evaporator set up with Steam Away (both paid for years ago) then they have natural gas (which here in PA is the cheapest way to make syrup) same producer $1 of gas per gallon of syrup. So at Spuds price they are still making $7 a gallon so if they make 30 gallons an hour their bought sap is still making them $210 and hour and most make WAY more than 30 gallons an hour. Then factor in that the person selling sap is doing things right changing spouts, changing drops, and replacing line on a schedule they will be making lighter syrup and the producer will make even more $. What happens is that the larger producer buying sap gets to DEPEND on the person selling sap because their good practices make the producer more $ and in some cases it easier to make more from the little guy than it is to revamp their own operation (big money) so they just kind of take theirs as it is. Of course not everyone can haul as much sap as Spud and for me that's the downside of selling sap and why I am on my own this season.
    Jared

  6. #26
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    May 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    Randy,

    You live in the same world I live in. Now stop and think about what you just said. The price of bulk syrup and maple equipment is very close to the same for both of us (although there is a discount on equipment if you live in Franklin County). There is no reason you can't set up your operation to be more profitable just like the big boy's do here in my area. They are no better or smarter then you they just see something you're not. In business there is always room for improvement. The problem with some people is they think their top notch so they never look into improving. In their eye's they are already at the top. There is always room for improvement even with the big boy's. Last year I got 25 GPT and I was happy with that (BUT). I see others getting 30-40 GPT and that tells me there is room for improvement in my woods and with my set-up. I want more production so I turn to those who are doing much better then me. There are great people on this site that have helped me a bunch. There is also PMRC and Dr.Tim that can help all of us to be better sugar maker's. I listen to these people because they understand how to get more GPT. All this information is free to anyone willing to listen. I have heard maple dealers say PMRC does not know what their talking about. I know one dealer that gets a .4 GPT average and that's pretty good. PMRC and other's get .6+ GPT so who's the Jack***? The key to being successful is learning from those who know more then you. Having a humble heart will lead a person to success. Whatever you're doing now (Randy) you can improve (only if you want). If 50/50 is the best you can do and show a profit then that should tell you something. Happy Birthday Randy.

    Spud

    Now Spud, you must also know that not all woods are created equal as well..... I for one know this to be true. I have my woods set up and can reach .5GPT. But last year I set up a new woods for a friend and they got close to .75GPT. Now the strange thing there is that they were not as aggressive at fixing leaks, certainly not as commited to keeping the vacuum at maximum levels as I am. etc etc etc... but they way out produced me. So I do not believe in the I did better than you theme. Now that being said certainly everyone has room for improvement (except me of course).

    Now on to the real topic of buying sap.

    I have thought long and hard on this particular subject on many occasions. And for sure Spud you receive an excellent rate for your sap. Now where the value comes into play for the buyer. He already has a hired guy that is driving around picking up sap. He already has a dedicated vehicle to do it. He already has the tanks needed to handle it. He already has an RO big enough to take care of it. He already has everything needed. He most likely is already in the 15,000 taps or larger category. most likely in the 20-30k. So your sap is just a splash in the pond. Probably adds an hour to an hour an half to his day. So my guess is he makes 120 or so gal of syrup off your woods on a given day so for his 35% he is making roughly 1300 gross. not a bad hour and half, plus a $100 to the truck and driver. But now on the other shoe you are talking to all these guys that are in the 1000-1500 taps and telling them what you are getting and it is just not available in most areas. Its just not possible. Personally I could handle another 10k taps with my equipment and would love to buy delivered sap, but I am not sure that messing around with sap I would have to go get would be worth it to me. Now take Randy, he already has to haul in most or all of his sap, is doing with equipment that gets upgraded every year and is not quite sized for his operation (but will be). He could not have 5-6000 gallons of sap dropped off everyday and keep up, therefore it is not worth it to him at this time. Down the road that theory may change. 65% is just not a workable number in most areas. You are quite fortunate that it works for you.
    Thad

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.
    Dr.Tim,

    One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup. You and others appear to be suggesting that sap value depends on the persons set-up. Some set-ups are much better then others. A guy with a 3x12 and no RO should not be buying sap because if he did he could only pay 5 cents a gallon to make it worth his while. So does that make the sap worth 5 cents? The same guy with his 3x12 and no RO gets the same price for his bulk syrup does he not? Should we pay him $80.00 a gallon because he spends so much more time and money to make the same product? Some sap sellers in some areas are trapped because their might only be one person buying sap. When this happens that one buyer can set his price and say take it or leave it. The sad part (and my point is) in most cases this one sap buyer will put the screws to the sellers (and you know it). The seller has to let his sap go for less then it's really worth or set up a sugar house for himself. Everyone talks about the price to set up a sugar house but not many want to talk about buying 100 acres and setting that up. Have any of you checked land prices lately? The price of sugar woods is on the rise because hard maple logs are worth a bunch to loggers and because people see the value in maple syrup.

    Spud

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    Dr.Tim,

    One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup. You and others appear to be suggesting that sap value depends on the persons set-up. Some set-ups are much better then others. A guy with a 3x12 and no RO should not be buying sap because if he did he could only pay 5 cents a gallon to make it worth his while. So does that make the sap worth 5 cents? The same guy with his 3x12 and no RO gets the same price for his bulk syrup does he not? Should we pay him $80.00 a gallon because he spends so much more time and money to make the same product? Some sap sellers in some areas are trapped because their might only be one person buying sap. When this happens that one buyer can set his price and say take it or leave it. The sad part (and my point is) in most cases this one sap buyer will put the screws to the sellers (and you know it). The seller has to let his sap go for less then it's really worth or set up a sugar house for himself. Everyone talks about the price to set up a sugar house but not many want to talk about buying 100 acres and setting that up. Have any of you checked land prices lately? The price of sugar woods is on the rise because hard maple logs are worth a bunch to loggers and because people see the value in maple syrup.

    Spud
    So with that being said then this theory would also be true. My house in Barre Vt is should be worth the same money as a house on Lake Champlain in Burlington. One size does not fit all. If no one is in your area buying sap or my guess is in your area there are a lot of people willing to buy sap. And as we also know in that area its not always about making the big profit, its more about making the most syrup. Its more of a supply and demand that will drive the price. The higher the demand the higher the price.
    Thad

  9. #29
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    Greenwich Ny
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    And that is pretty much the bottom line, and especially true for sellers/buyers of sap. One size does not fit all.
    Agree 100% . You can think you have a product that is worth a million dollars .If nobody will pay that then guess what it isn't worth that. Just because somebody buys a product cheaper dose not mean they are ripping off the seller. The seller is agreeing to sell it then it is his personal choice and he isn't being ripped off. Nobody is putting a gun to his head and forcing him. If he dose not want to sell it for the price the buyer offers then he can move on to the next person. That's just business !

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    One size should fit all because sap has value just like syrup.
    Spud....you make a lot of excellent points, and I've very happy that you are satisfied with the price you receive for your sap. However there are a lot of factors involved in determining the value BESIDES just the value of the syrup. Distance is one. A maple producer who has the capacity for processing and will accept the sap. Many many others. All of those factors drive the demand, and thus the price, up and down.
    Dr. Tim Perkins
    UVM Proctor Maple Research Ctr
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc
    https://mapleresearch.org
    Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

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