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Thread: Vacuum pump at the top of the hill?

  1. #1
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    Default Vacuum pump at the top of the hill?

    Is this possible? I would have easy access to electrical power at the top of the sugarbush, and a paved road at the bottom allowing sap pickup. Could this work with a wet/dry setup? It seems that vacuum transfer does not care about gravity. How would the flow interaction work at manifolds, and what style of manifold/booster could make this work?

  2. #2
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    For this to work correctly you must have a dry vacuum supply line the whole way to the bottom to your releaser. To do it the way you describe is counter productive, with air flow traveling the opposite direction of sap flow. You're not technically moving "vacuum", you're moving air.
    Andy's Own Maple
    Andy Kinter (4th + generation maple producer)
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    Kubota MX5100 sap hauler
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    A great family that works together to make syrup!

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  3. #3
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    mapleack is right, you will need to run a pipe all the way to the bottom to the releaser, then wet and dry all the way back up. What happens if you don't is that the vacuum will pull sap up the pipe and you will get a whooosshhhh whooooosshhh sound as the sap collects and tries to go up the pipe. And when this happens you will have no vacuum at the bottom.

    Now comes the fun part..... if your sugarhouse is at the top, run another pipe all the way up and pump it up using a generator, no hauling necessary. If this is something you can do I can explain it more. I do it for 1900 taps and pump over a mile.....
    Thad

  4. #4
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    Thad,
    Do you drain the line from the sugarhouse to the releaser or do you have it baried underground?
    Schellmaple

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by schellmaple View Post
    Thad,
    Do you drain the line from the sugarhouse to the releaser or do you have it baried underground?
    Schellmaple
    Do you mean from the sugarhouse to the pump? No. I use a deep well pump in the bottom of a round bottom tank and I remove the check valve. The sap in the line flows back into the tank. If I thought it was going to freeze up especially hard I can pull the pump out of the tank, but for the most part it stays right there. As far as sap in the line, I have never been that nervous about it freezing. I pump it out at the end of the day, so the sap in the line (if any) is all thawed out. I use a float hitched to a generator to shut the generator off, thereby shutting the pump off, go and start it and walk away.
    Thad

  6. #6
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    Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but.....Thad, what kind of deep well pump and how high are you pumping? I have seen pumps from hundreds to thousands and am interested in doing this. We have a significant lift to go over.

    Craig

  7. #7
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    I wouldn't mind hearing more about it either Thad you gave me an idea I already have a deep well pump and probably electric could have electric. I was going to do it all on vacuum but it might be easier to run dry line then pump once a day or at least later in the day.

  8. #8
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    My lift is 130-140 feet. Total length of pipe 1 mile. From Tank to top of hill is 1500 (ish). Then down the hill almost the same drop. My understanding of siphoning only works on 30 feet or so..... not sure on the truth of that.

    What I do at the tank is put a 1.5 hp deep well pump right in the bottom. I have an 8000kw generator. I wire the kill switch to a float. So when float is goes down it makes the connection to the kill switch. Thus shutting off the generator, and stopping the pump. I also have the one inch pipe connected to my releaser at the sugarhouse, I thought it was easier for line to drain. My tanks at SH are upstairs, thus I would have to lift the line up 15 feet leaving a lot of pipe with fluid. So the line to the tank is always under vacuum, but does not need to be.

    This has worked flawlessly for 2 years now. I do recommend a moisture trap at the releaser though..... if you have a problem it is a bitch to get the sap out of the line feeding vacuum to the releaser.....

    More than happy to explain more if necessary.
    Thad

  9. #9
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    No need for generator to pump - paved road access is good to the bottom of the hill and it seems cheaper to haul by road than to dedicate a generator to that location. I suspected that a third pipeline would be needful. Still, 2000' of plastic would be cheaper (and quieter) than establishing power at the collection point.

    Back the original question. If the dry line is truly dry, air transfer and sap transfer would not be interfering. It is in the boosters/manifolds that the interaction takes place. I can see a lot of loss in a standard size manifold. How much "gurgling" would take place if the manifold was tallish and made out of something like 4" pvc?

  10. #10
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    If you are putting the releaser at the bottom of the hill you just need a vacuum supply line to the releaser then your wet and dry line out of the releaser to your tap system. Depending on how much line you have you might want boosters in the wet dry system. My neighbors have one big pump and they ran 2 inch vacuum lines to 6 maybe more releasers mounted on tanks all of which are right by the road for easy pick up.

    I think Thad was trying to save you hauling. I guess my take on that is it depends on how much hauling.

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