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Thread: Marketing Syrup as Reverse Osmosis or Pipeline Free

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    Dr Perkins, no disrespect intended by my previous comments, nor those I am about to make. However you refer to the maple industry, and I think therein lies a principle difference in our philosophies. To me, and my very small customer base, it isn’t about an industry, or making money, or even whether or not a flavor difference exists between RO and non RO syrup. It’s about a comfort food.... one that, for whatever reason, invokes warm feelings of nostalgia for bygone days and practices. THAT’S the market I spoke of earlier. This particular, tiny market, wants great tasting syrup of course, but they also want product made in the same fashion that they envision it made decades ago. Proving to these folks that there is no difference in taste, doesn’t satisfy their taste for nostalgia.

    You speak in terms of money spent for research, testing, etc. And I don’t doubt a single word you say, or a single study you cite. But if nostalgia were not a force to be reckoned with, the Cracker Barrel restaurant chain would disappear, would it not? That’s the element that science struggles to fit into a tidy box, in my opinion.
    It’s a means to market your syrup and build a customer base/brand. Like I said there’s a couple discussion going on here.
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  2. #172
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    RO simply removes pure water from sap leaving a higher concentration of maple sugar. If someone wants to believe that there is a detectable difference between sap that has had some water removed from it and sap collected straight from the tree, I wonder what they think when they get 6% sap from one tree and 1.5% from another. Nature has concentrated the sugar content for them. Also, do they remove ice from buckets or boil that too? Do they pre-heat the sap before adding it to the evaporator? Both of those will concentrate the sap as well. If concentrating sugar affects the flavor that much, what do those producers do to not have concentrated sap?

    I get that a lot of people buy syrup based on the nostalgia of how they perceive how maple syrup is made. Just read this story from the Washington Post yesterday. There's a lot of markets outside of maple syrup based on what people think that are are far from reality. I think the difference here is that we each go after a niche be that the energy efficient, modern or more traditional. It doesn't make one product superior. As has been shown there really is no real difference save for what people believe and you can't change that.
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  3. #173
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    As with anything that touches the sap, we have to hope that RO technology doesn't add something undesirable. That's been true of copper, plastic, aluminum, brass, cast iron, steel, tin, lead, zinc, stainless steel, defoamers, filters, filtering aids, and even wood. With RO equipment, we also have to hope that it doesn't extract something desirable. Since RO reduces the time that the sugars and other components of sap are exposed to heat, it seems like a legitimate thing to study, especially since we know that if we evaporate sap via vacuum alone, it doesn't produce good syrup. At least some heat is essential. The question is a matter of how much and at what point would RO shorten the boil time enough to bring the heat input below the amount required for enough.
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  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cedar Eater View Post
    With RO equipment, we also have to hope that it doesn't extract something desirable.
    There is no need to hope. It doesn't. The science on that (in maple) has been quite clear for a very long time. Furthermore, the original research was done with true RO machines, not the ultrafiltration devices (commonly referred to as RO) that most people use now, which operate under far less pressure with far better membranes than when that work was done.

    Since RO reduces the time that the sugars and other components of sap are exposed to heat, it seems like a legitimate thing to study, especially since we know that if we evaporate sap via vacuum alone, it doesn't produce good syrup.
    Concentration/evaporation with vacuum is a totally different thing and a ridiculous notion to bring to this conversation. It is apples and oranges, or a more appropriate analogy to your example, bananas and monkeys. Evaporation by vacuum (low pressure level) and by heat are TOTALLY different. While the sugar beet/sugarcane industry use vacuum evaporation technology (with some heat), the maple industry doesn't. The beet/cane industry doesn't want color development in their product.

    At least some heat is essential.
    Yes, heat is necessary to develop color and flavor. It is not necessary to evaporate, but introducing that variable into this conversation adds nothing but confusion.

    The question is a matter of how much...
    But who decides what the target flavor is, or what is too little or too much? Some people like light maple flavors, some like strong maple flavors. A bulk producer might just as easily say that their customer (the bulk buyer) desires the lightest syrup possible, and pays more for it, so that is what I do. Their approach is just as legitimate as someone who wants to make strong tasting dark syrup.

    ..and at what point would RO shorten the boil time enough to bring the heat input below the amount required for enough.
    Again, what is "enough"? It actually takes rather little boiling time for caramelization (color/flavor development) to occur. What is more critical is the temperature at which the target sugars caramelize at. Boiling for even a relatively short amount of time will caramelize invert sugars (one the critical activation energy--temperature level is achieved, sugars will caramelize). Continued boiling will darken the syrup further, but that is more due to overheating sugars than not to cooking enough. It is two different (but related) processes.

    A lot of the same processes happen in toasting of bread (or coffee, or anything with much carbohydrate). There is a fine line between hot bread and toast. Before you hit that line you just have hot/dry bread. Once you hit it, you have toast. After that, you simply are charring carbohydrates, and you can surely get the toast darker. That doesn't mean it is better, and some people like their bread lightly toasted while other like it black. But regardless, the conversion from bread to toast is very distinct. Syrup is very similar, but you can't see it happening as well since it happens right at the interface of the pan and liquid and is moving constantly and very fast.
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  5. #175
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    Say I have 200 gallons of sap at 2% and I divide that in half. 100 gallons I boil as usual, batch boil flat pan. I reduce it down to 3 gallons, which I finish on propane. The other 100 gallons I run through my RO and take it to 4%, which leaves me only 50 gallons to boil in the same fashion. I reduce it down to 3 gallons also, then finish on propane.

    So the 100 gallons I ran through the RO, spent a lot less time on the fire. Wouldn’t that affect the flavor of the finished syrup somehow, linked indirectly to running it through the RO first? Not arguing, I’m just trying to understand.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    Say I have 200 gallons of sap at 2% and I divide that in half. 100 gallons I boil as usual, batch boil flat pan. I reduce it down to 3 gallons, which I finish on propane. The other 100 gallons I run through my RO and take it to 4%, which leaves me only 50 gallons to boil in the same fashion. I reduce it down to 3 gallons also, then finish on propane.

    So the 100 gallons I ran through the RO, spent a lot less time on the fire. Wouldn’t that affect the flavor of the finished syrup somehow, linked indirectly to running it through the RO first? Not arguing, I’m just trying to understand.
    I thought the good doctor did a great job explaining that in the post above yours:

    "Again, what is "enough"? It actually takes rather little boiling time for caramelization (color/flavor development) to occur. What is more critical is the temperature at which the target sugars caramelize at. Boiling for even a relatively short amount of time will caramelize invert sugars (one the critical activation energy--temperature level is achieved, sugars will caramelize). Continued boiling will darken the syrup further, but that is more due to overheating sugars than not to cooking enough. It is two different (but related) processes.

    A lot of the same processes happen in toasting of bread (or coffee, or anything with much carbohydrate). There is a fine line between hot bread and toast. Before you hit that line you just have hot/dry bread. Once you hit it, you have toast. After that, you simply are charring carbohydrates, and you can surely get the toast darker. That doesn't mean it is better, and some people like their bread lightly toasted while other like it black. But regardless, the conversion from bread to toast is very distinct. Syrup is very similar, but you can't see it happening as well since it happens right at the interface of the pan and liquid and is moving constantly and very fast."
    Yes there are subtle differences but my understanding is that it doesn't take much to develop that flavor. Like he says, the longer it is in contact with heat the more that will develop. Different people like different flavors and different buyers will buy what they want. It still doesn't mean that any one is "better" than another.
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  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    So the 100 gallons I ran through the RO, spent a lot less time on the fire. Wouldn’t that affect the flavor of the finished syrup somehow, linked indirectly to running it through the RO first?
    If you look at it from the standpoint of the sap chemistry, then you have it totally backward. It is actually more appropriate to say that cooking it for a long time is damaging the inherent nature of the sugars in the sap.

    Caramelization of sugars occurs when the critical activation energy is reached based upon the temperature of the solution, not on the length of time it is boiled. AFTER that point, you might make darker syrup if you keep boiling it longer, but that is only because you are charring niter and sugars in the solution. The base chemistry of the solution dictates the color/flavor of the product. If you continue to process (boil) longer, it will darken the product, but that is your choice of processing dictating that result, and not the inherent property of the sap causing it. Rather than "not cooking enough", it is "cooking too much" which causes the darker color and stronger flavor.

    The analogy would be toast (my previous post). Another would be steak. Whether you like your steak rare or well-done dictates how much you cook it. Cooking it beyond rare doesn't necessarily make it "better", but it does make it different.

    And in case anyone is paying attention....I like my syrup AR, my toast light, and my steak medium-rare. Marshmallows over the campfire I prefer charred black. If you're still paying attention....I like my gin & tonic cold, in a glass, with ice, twist of lime.
    Last edited by DrTimPerkins; 04-11-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    And in case anyone is paying attention....I like my syrup AR, my toast light, and my steak medium-rare. Marshmallows over the campfire I prefer charred black. If you're still paying attention....I like my gin & tonic cold, in a glass, with ice, twist of lime.
    OK let's see if I got this right..you like your syrup light, your toast dark, your steak charred black and your marshmallows medium rare.
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  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins View Post
    ..............I like my gin & tonic cold, in a glass, with ice, twist of lime.

    .......and probably plentiful, after putting up with the repetitive questions you get from all of us!

    Thanks for your expertise and patience!
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  10. #180
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    Okay, what my feeble brain thinks it understands:

    1) There is an optimum temp....”critical activation energy”
    2) Cooking syrup beyond this point might darken it due to charring of the sugars and niter.
    3) Cooking longer leads to darker color and stronger flavor.
    4) My 2x3 flat pan takes approx 12 hours to turn 100 gallons into 3 gallons of concentrate.
    5) Since I batch boil, some of that 100 gallons has been on the fire for 12 hours.
    6) is it safe to assume that after 12 hours, I’m probably over processing and burning niter and sugar?

    So, if I RO that 100 gallons down to 50 gallons, then my sap is on the fire for a maximum of 6 hours. If more time on the fire leads to darker color and stronger taste, then shouldn’t less time on the fire lead to lighter color and milder taste, everything else being equal, with the exception of the RO?

    I’m not saying that either way is better, I’m simply struggling with the idea that MY operation in the configuration I’ve described, won’t make different syrup with an RO. Now a continuous evaporater, I see where the difference could be minimal. But a batch boil? Is it not a case of less time over the heat translating to less scorched niter and sugar??

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