Someone talking about global warming killing off Maples...

[Maple Hobo]

sean d could not have said it better myself!! whether you believe in the global warming theory or not i feel as producers of natuural products we should try to be as environmentally sound as we can. it is funny to me that the people that make a living or part-time living off the "land" are sometimes so unwilling to put back. i find that a lot farmers, let me state it is a goal of mine to begin farming soon, care little of wildlife and trees, and the land they live off. some only caring about the bottom line. does that not seem fundamentally wrong!! i know this will make alot mad but i see it everyday. don't think it's always been this way but seems to be a growing trend. how many of us are putting back. think about it, when was the last time you did something for wildlife or planted a tree, that was not in your own backyard!! i think that if we started acting like stewards to the land instead of warlords things would be better for all involved. maybe that leopold was onto to something.

Just wait... You'll get to give back soon enough... They officials here have been promoting the idea of taxing you for each maple tree on your property... tapped or not.

Places like New York sound like they are trying to make state owned processing centers to make maple sugaring a government controled entity.

They just changed the law here last year to tax each farmer per head of sheep. The last of the large sheep farmers here sold his sheep and now runs cattle... They don't tax the cattle... yet. My father in law asked some of the officials when they plan on taxing per chicken for the mega chicken houses here... They tried to laugh it off.

The government payed farmers around here to get rid of their dairy cattle too. They missed the clause that said they were no longer allowed to raise milk cattle... SO small dairys are gone.

They passed regulations here so you can only raise and sell chickens in giant barns of fixed sizes... No more local grown free range chickens. They are even making it so you can't give your neighbor any extra eggs you might have.

They also land banked much of the farm land here. They grow corn on some but are paid to not harvest it or even plant it at all. Most of the farms and equipment here are owned by elderly people with broken down equipment who can no longer farm and it costs too much to hire people and re equip to start farming.

I would love to see the old local market and farming come back in our country... Unfortunatly they seem to be able to import powdered apple juice from China cheaper then they can grow an apple localy and juice it. I don't know how but all the apple orchards in Virginia are fallow and un managed now...

How many good jobs could be filled if farming returned?
Too many governmental regulations saying you can't grow foods and special interest groups to allow that to happen.

The growth potential for Maple here in West Virginia is huge, but each time you start to show up on the radar the local government tried to take you down. We already threatened to cut down every maple on the property before we would pay them a tree tax. That seemed to put them off for now.

Most of the Maple producers here opperate more like the boot leggers of old running moonshine!
If the government finds out you made a proffit... they want to take it without working for it.

Something from you for nothing... Thats the issue I have with the carbon credit/ Global warming promoters.

As far as the GREEN products like the popular CFL bulbs. Are you properly disposing of them? They do contain mercury?
Do a little research into the manufaturing of fluorecent lights and solar panels... Not exactly green products.

So wants killing our maples localy? Money is... The climate will do what it wants to do and the trees will addapt and grow as conditions allow.

[markcasper]

Who is "They"? Do you all think this is just happening by chance?

[eagle lake sugar]

If you google Chicago Climate Exchange, you'll see a few of the players that DO stand to benefit from the G.W. movement. Al Gore, General Electric, etc. It lost all credibility with me a long tome ago. When I looked at my thermometer a couple winters ago and it said -45, it was over. How do any of us know how old the earth is? People just like you and I, get a degree and are dubbed "scientists". Then they use preconceived methods invented by other "scientists" to date rocks, fossils etc. I guess I choose a different source for my information. Many "ignoramuses" like myself, believe the biblical version that the earth WAS created for us. Are oil, natural gas, wood, and coal, not natural resources? If not, then what? You can rest assured that if we need more air, we'll get it. When the earth is meant to end, it will. If you have a windmill, solar panels and a prius, it won't matter, so relax and enjoy your life. Just my 2 cents. Steve

[Cardigan99]

[QUOTE=Maplehobbyist;171996]
For humans, the survival of mankind may be important, but earth was not put here for mans use.
QUOTE]

If the earth were not put here for us to use, where would we get off drilling holes in trees to make maple syrup? How could we even exist without using the resources here on earth?

[SeanD]

Oh man, too much to take on at once - chicken head taxes, Chinese powdered juice, biblical interpretation, and more! I can't tackle it all, but I guess that's the point. There are, I suppose, many things to worry about, but it doesn't do any good to throw them all in the same pot and let them stew. It will overwhelm us and we'll be right back where we started. It's time to take that step back and take a breath. Just focus on one at a time. It's quite possible that they are not all part of one giant conspiracy to screw the average Joe.

Toxins in CFLs? - Correct. But since I bought my my first one about 11 years ago, I have yet to deal with one blowing out. The very first one I put in the lamp in the corner is still going strong. That's 11 years of using 9 watts instead of 40 every night. I have gone through lots of incandescent lightbulbs in that time, though. When the time comes, I'll dispose of the CFLs the same way I deal with my old thermostats. It can be done safely. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. CFLs are a net positive in my book.

Hitting -45 a couple of winters ago - True. But don't confuse weather with climate. Weather is the short-term condition of the atmosphere. Climate is the long- term condition of the atmosphere. Weather changes day to day and year to year. A snowy winter can be followed by one that is mild then followed by one that is dry and cold. Those are weather patterns. Climate study focuses on long-term (multiple-decade and century) trends. Our climate data tells us that global temperatures are rising.

Scientists - Yes. People who get a degree in a field of science, continue research, and provide us with data are dubbed "scientists". I'm okay with that. Where would the maple industry be without Cornell, Proctor, or Dr. Tim for that matter?

Biblical versions - I think science and the Bible can coexist without one feeling threatened by the other. Dan Brown writes fiction for our entertainment.

Natural resources - Yes! And as maple producers, we are stewards of a few of them. The trouble is we have not been wise about the use of others. Even if we were to possibly believe that our fossil fuel supplies are endless, we still have to account for the disproportionate amounts of carbon, that took millennia to lock deep within the earth, that are now being released into our atmosphere in less than 200 years.

Sean

[eagle lake sugar]

Just to clarify, I'm not by any means anti-science. You are absolutely right about the maple research centers being an invaluable resource. Any research that can be done where tangible results can be verified, I embrace. It's when science delves into the intangible that I have a problem. For example, micro-evolution is more or less provable over a human lifetime or two. Macro-evolution, not so much. It's up to each person to decide whether or not their great great great great great grandaddy was a human or a frog. Do I believe in climate change? Absolutely! It's been changing in cycles since creation. Can we have a small effect on the climate? Maybe, it's one of those intangibles. I think animals as well as plants have become extinct throughout history as they are needed to make this whole thing work. I hope the sugar maple is not one of these! In our lifetime, several trees and animals have gone away, such as the dutch elm. In my neck of the woods, the beech trees are mostly diseased and failing. Trying to be a conservationist is a good thing as long as it's not by militant approach. By the way, thanks for not letting the discussion devolve into belittling, insults, etc. Have a good tapping season. Steve

[markcasper]

For humans, the survival of mankind may be important, but earth was not put here for mans use. The earth will warm up or the earth will cool down with no regard for whether or not we as a species survive. Can the earth survive without us?

Not to step on anyones toes, but if you believe in what Gods Word says then the first sentence would be false.

Why is everything that can't be proven 100% considered a conspiracy theory? Or if an individual is in a denial phase of happenings, what constitutes calling the issue at hand a "conspiracy theory"?

[Maplehobbyist]

...For example, micro-evolution is more or less provable over a human lifetime or two. Macro-evolution, not so much. It's up to each person to decide whether or not their great great great great great grandaddy was a human or a frog...

It may be up to each person to decide whether or not they BELIEVE their great-great-great-great-great grandaddy was a human or a frog, but they don't get to choose which things are facts and which things are not. I'm not saying that macro-evolution is a fact, but if it is, whether or not you choose to believe it has no bearing on it being true. It only means you've formed your opinion contrary to the facts.

If the earth were not put here for us to use, where would we get off drilling holes in trees to make maple syrup? How could we even exist without using the resources here on earth?

I didn't mean to say we shouldn't use the resources on earth, because you're absolutely right, we couldn't exist if we didn't. What I was trying to say, in regards to whether global warming or global cooling is more conducive to mankinds survival, is things happen on a global or cosmic scale with no regard for how it will impact the survival of any one species, like storms, volcanic eruptions, solar flares, ice-ages, the earth changing its degree of tilt, a meteor hitting earth, etc... If we die out as a species because of one or a series of these events, life will go on here. Just not as we know it.

[markcasper]

For humans, the survival of mankind may be important, but earth was not put here for mans use.


.

Why was earth put here and where can I find out about that information?

[Revi]

As I sit here typing I am watching the frost fall off the trees as it is about 5 below. It was 17 below last night. I think that's typical Maine weather for the third week of January. I just took a course on climate change and just read With Speed and Violence by Fred Pearce. It's about the current state of climate science. We have warmed about a degree celsius since the early 1900s. That can't be denied. The average temperature of the earth was about 56 degrees farenheit, and it's now over 57. That doesn't sound like much, but it is already causing problems. We are going to experience up to 8 degrees more if we keep pushing more carbon and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. The typical number of co2 in the atmosphere is about 280 ppm for an interglacial period. We are now at 392 and climbing. That means that about 3 degrees of warming is in the pipeline, and with positive feedbacks we could be much hotter.

The maple zone has already moved north. Ohio used to be the center of the maple industry in the US. Then it moved to Vermont and now the biggest producers are in the northeast corner of Maine, on the border with Canada. It's okay with us, but those further south are already moving out of the commercial maple zone.

Climate change is real, but it may not be predictable. We are moving into a much more unstable world. That's the lesson I have learned. Be prepared for a wild ride.