Cost and Availability of SAP

[crackher]

hey folks
I am really curious about the cost of Sap in the Caledon, Ontario area? Anyone have any idea as to how much it would be to buy? along the same lines what, if anyone does, do you pay to "rent" trees

[crackher]

really there are no takers....ok what, if anyone, are you paying for sap? or rental trees in your areas

[ennismaple]

Sorry - Don't rent taps or buy/sell sap. There are other threads you can search where this has been discussed recently (not for Ontario but gives you a benchmark).

[argohauler]

My neighbour rents a bush and pays a dollar per tap (hard and soft maple). That's way too much in my opinion. The way our block runs compared to other bushes in the area, we're about half to 3/4 of what they would make.

Normal running trees, I think 50 cents per tap is plenty, for all the work involved.

[spud]

I have some real good friends who rent their 2000 tap woods for .50 a tap. There are cost involved in setting up their woods so they have a five year contract. The people renting the woods are getting a great deal. It cost $12,000-$14,000 to set the woods up with pipeline. In the 4 years they have been tapping the woods they have made a minimum of 500 gallons of syrup in a single season. In the four years combined they made about 2500 gallons. At current bulk prices that would be $80,000 Their profit by far out weighs their expense. I think my friends are getting robbed. If i had a 2000 tap woods for rent i would have to get 1/3 the syrup made from my land just to make it worth while. If i was going to sell my sap i would have to get .50 gallon. When i moved to Alaska i rented my 1700 tap woods in vermont to two different people. The first guy ripped me off and trashed my sugarhouse and equipment. The next year i rented it to a so called friend and he never payed me. After that i just sold the place and said the hell with it. My personal feeling is if you own a sugarwoods and can't sugar it yourself then leave the woods untapped and keep everyone off.

[spud]

There is a guy on Vermont craiglist wanting to buy sap for 65% of syrup price. Thats about .50 cents a gallon.

[ennismaple]

I have some real good friends who rent their 2000 tap woods for .50 a tap. There are cost involved in setting up their woods so they have a five year contract. The people renting the woods are getting a great deal. It cost $12,000-$14,000 to set the woods up with pipeline. In the 4 years they have been tapping the woods they have made a minimum of 500 gallons of syrup in a single season. In the four years combined they made about 2500 gallons. At current bulk prices that would be $80,000 Their profit by far out weighs their expense.

I disagree. For the $20,000 cost of the materials ($7/tap plus tank, releaser and vacuum pump), plus labour cost to set up the woods (say $5,000), plus labour to tap, check for leaks and clean the tubing each year, plus labour to gather and boil sap each year, plus fuel cost to boil the sap ($3 to $4/gallon syrup depending on oil prices, assume no RO and 2% sap) there's not as much profit as you might think. Yes the producer who is renting your friend's woods is making more money off it than your friends - he has to or it makes no sense to bother with the extra work. You look at the risk/reward and your friends may not have gotten as good a deal as they could have (their own fault for not negotiating a better deal) but it's still $5000 in their pocket with little to no effort and the producer could have gotten a few bad years and lost money on the deal.

[spud]

I disagree. For the $20,000 cost of the materials ($7/tap plus tank, releaser and vacuum pump), plus labour cost to set up the woods (say $5,000), plus labour to tap, check for leaks and clean the tubing each year, plus labour to gather and boil sap each year, plus fuel cost to boil the sap ($3 to $4/gallon syrup depending on oil prices, assume no RO and 2% sap) there's not as much profit as you might think. Yes the producer who is renting your friend's woods is making more money off it than your friends - he has to or it makes no sense to bother with the extra work. You look at the risk/reward and your friends may not have gotten as good a deal as they could have (their own fault for not negotiating a better deal) but it's still $5000 in their pocket with little to no effort and the producer could have gotten a few bad years and lost money on the deal.

I do understand the cost involved in set-up but i am looking at it as a land owner. It would not matter to me if you used buckets, gravity or high vac while renting my woods. I still would need to charge the same price for renting the woods. Naturally the person using the buckets is going to do far more work and make far less syrup then the person using high-vac and CV spouts but the rent stays the same. If the renter does not have a RO then that just hurts his profit not mine. If i was going to rent my sugarwoods for a third of the crop then i would not allow buckets or gravity but only high vac. I would even suggest CV spouts so we both would make more money on the deal. Your right in saying my friends are at fault with their rental agreement. I have been telling them that for four years. They are saying they won't make the same mistake again. You mentioned $5000 for set-up labor on a 2000 tap woods. How much money per hour are you looking to make? It seems like you want $60.00 an hour or so on a two week set-up. A farmer can never figure his time or he would find he only makes $5.00-$15.00 per hour in most cases. I still feel that a land owner should be paid much more then most do. When a land owner sets his price it should be based on how much syrup his woods can make with the right set-up on a average year.

Mike

[Yellzee]

if I got a penny a tap I'd be way better off than doing this myself... anyone really making a big profit off this let me know...

so far I'm into about 1500$ for 120 or so taps and the shack expansion... estimated sales about 400$ by the time I give most away... and then there is the beer cost....

My point would be that there are so many costs every year... replacing the squirrel damage, the tree damage, the work to set everything up again every fall (or spring like most of us), fixing the stuff that breaks... that 20K for working full time for 6 weeks plus all the expenses every year probably doesn't net out to the great profit you are visualizing..

[ennismaple]

Mike - I see your point and I agree I was likely a bit heavy on my 5 second cost estimate for labour to install the tubing. Two weeks of 2 guys full-time is about right but you'd be bagged at the end of it!

Renting someone's woods needs to benefit both parties but being a producer I believe the producer should make more profit than the landowner because they're the one putting in all the effort and taking the risk. Buying sap is a different proposition because you're getting a known commodity.