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I have canned probably a good 1/3 of my syrup over the years but am getting tired of sitting on it so from now on I will can probably 15 gal. and bulk the rest. Get the check and run if you know what I mean. Less expense on cans/jugs. As long as it is self supportive your doing alright. I don't have an RO, no hoods, no oil, still pretty much the same as when I started, just bigger arch and pans (1990).
I agree that we deal with this obsession for the love of sugaring and being in the woods, etc, and I hope that never changes because it is absolutely the best therapy I can think of for cabin fever!! Only a couple more weeks and away we go!
I was thinking about this one the other day when I was splitting wood kinda of a mindless job. And reading through some of the threads. And the meaning of "profit" and not just the monitary sence of the word. the enjoyment of getting outside(although cold now) being out in nature, excersize, fun, bringing people together(and random people show up if they see steam)!!! hanging out with the kids in the sugarhouse and the enjoyment of it all...I think the money is second here. As my wife says some times the jouney is the destination.
I also think the intangibles are the most important, however I'm a capitalist. So this is how I look at it: Raw Material X Production X Sales = Profit
Playing with my equation, sap X steam X sales, I find the sales are the most important variable. If you can sell syrup for a high price, then whether it costs $20 or $60 gal to produce isn't as important. Next is raw material quality, the % of sugar in the sap. If you are gathering 4% sap, how it is boiled isn't as important. Of least importance to profit is how you boil the sap and unfortunately where most spend their capital... shiny equipment that sits idle 95% of the year.
So if you are gather 3.5% sap and sell syrup for $85 a gal you can then decide how much capital to invest in steam production by projecting your gal/hr of evaporation need.
Small producers can make money with a careful marketing plan and investing in their trees.
Bruce
This has been a very interesting thread to see others thoughts of why they are doing this. I know the first year I did this was for my Daughter, 5 at the time. what she got out of it and what I did, was memories that will last a life time.
My second year I got my son out there 3 1/2 he was more interested in hitting sticks on trees but it gave him and myself a lot of enjoyment. We had more friends and family show up and it was great fun for everyone. Almost everyone wanted to do something, some of the most fun was watching people try to split wood. Everything was outside,it was hard work, the nights went long, and the beer stayed cold until it was consumed, but the real reward / profit was the time with friends and family.
this year will be a bit different, cooking inside and spent a bunch more money of course. but hope to have more friends and family over, if I can sell some syrup and cover some cost great if not oh well. For me its about the adventure. I don't want it to become something that I have to feel like I have to make money at, there is too may variables and that would just ad stress to what I want to be fun for me and my family and friends.
Ive been putting a lot of thought into making maple a career for myself. I did follow one of the steps listed earlier in the tread though! I married a beautifull girl who in a year will have a very good paying job in the medical field! So the health insurance will be all set too! So this does make things a little easier for me. It all depends on how far you want to take it and if you have the resources to take it that far. as far as making a profit I think there are to many varriables to put any type of statisticle chart out there! Like some one else said... do you buy all the fancy stuff every year or do you buy only what you need to. The number of taps you have does play a factor to some extent. But again it can come down to how much did you have to pay to get to that number of taps? lets take 2 setups that both have 200 taps with all identicle taps fittings vac. levels ect. however setup 1 could get all 200 taps on 1 mainline 800ft long but the setup 2 was more spaced out and took 3 mainlines 600ft long. even if they produced the same amount of sap setup 1 will pay off and turn a profit faster. I know its simple and pretty obviouse but it can be easy to overlook. and thats only half of it. setup 2 could produce more finished product because it had more sugar maples so the sap was sweeter, or maybe the sun exposure was better on one setup than the other. there are so many things to take into consideration. It can drive you crazy thinking about it all! Another part is how much time do you spend in the woods durring the season? this is especially important for those who run vacuum. an air tight system is so important to produce higher sap yields. I help a producer that makes 1/3 gallon of syrup per tree on more than 65% soft maples. and if you ask him what the biggest factor is he will tell you ...... checking for leaks. I am no pro at this by any means. my screen name says it all! But we can learn so much about what to do and what not to do from other producers. Most of them have no problem sharing how they run thier operation. Thier past mistakes that they have corrected along with all the new research that is going on by UVM and others is making it more and more attainable to turn a profite in this industry! sorry for the long post!
I will have to say that just makeing syrup is a adventure. If I cam make a couple bucks to cover costs and have lots for myself so be it. I love feeding wood to the fire and such. The long hours when I get cold suck. If I can get inside some day it will be nice and then I can read warm while boiling.
This year I am hopefully going to be quicker and shorten boil times. I have not idea what even break even would be anymore. Just going to try my best and have fun. I never have company most nights unless you count the wild cats but as long as I have something to read I do okay. Would take a lot of work to make any money on this profect me thinks.
I made a promise to myself (aka my wife) that i would no longer put my own money into this, but everything i sell i get to use to buy new equipment for making syrup, i took last years proceeds and bouht a new preheater and hood, and some supplies, so the more syrup i can make the more stuff i can buy, I try to look at it as a self supporting hobby now, i know to me if i was to make money personally you kind lose the hobby feeling and it turns more into work and i dont want that, i enjoy doing this and if I counted on it for income it would take the fun out of it for me. no pun inteded!!!!!!!!
Erik
Ive heard a lot of "my syrup money goes for up grades". Ive been doing that for about 8 years. My plan is to built up to make at least 500 gallons of syrup per year. I dlike to be able to make 1000 gallons. I have a 3x12, and I intend on buying a neighbors used 600 gph ro.
I do it because i love being outside, and working for myself. I grew up on a dairy farm. I like working wiht nature. I like taping trees. I like collecting sap. I like feeding the eveporator. I love eating syrup. I just love everything about making syrup except the end of the season. If I can make enouhg profit to provide me wiht a yearly income I dont care too much about the hours of labor it takes.
This is a super thread and I want to thank those of you with larger operations for sharing some of your numbers because I've often been curious as to how you make it work given expenses and labour.
If "profitable" means making a living exclusively from maple it rules me out. If profitable means more revenue than expenses... I'm in. I typically run 45 taps, boil only on weekends and occasionally Wednesday night if I have too much sap to entertain with (I'll explain that in a second), and only sell directly to a few customers. My operation is based on families coming out and making their own syrup using mostly traditional methods and learning all about how to do it in the process. My first season payed for all the equipment and my learning process while I got things figured... in other words I worked for free or 0 labour costs factored in.
Since my second season I've been netting between $2400 and $2600 with plans on adding a second evaporator if I can get the timing and/or schedule figured out correctly so I'm not spinning too many plates at the same time. Add in the fact that my expenses are tax deductible from my day job under Ontario Farm tax laws and the net gets even better. Round all that to 3 Grand and that's not bad at all for 45 taps and a hobby I'd be doing anyway for only 4 ~ 6 weekends a year... when I'm itching to get out of the house anyway.
Bryan if you are getting 2400 for 45 taps you need to share what the heck you are doing. That is over 53 bucks per tap. If I got those number my 800 Ill have out would give me 42666.66 bucks. The expected income on that 800 after expenses for me should be 10000 if I quite giving some away. Oh and for the ones that say that does not include your labor, well that 10000 is what I get for my labor. Also previous years production has payed for everything already except jugs and misc items. And you guessed it that 10000 will get rolled right back into upgrades until I have reached my magic number.
Bryanex, are yo sure that dollar figure is not a typo? :o :)
Bryan is selling tourism for the big bucks, maple is just the hook to haul 'em in:lol:
Thompson's Tree Farm is absolutely correct. Everyone here is focused on price per gallon while I'm selling entertainment/learning experience/history. I'm surrounded by large commercial sugar bushes and am a very small player. I needed something different, marketable, and manageable... which I now have.
Certainly... cuz I'm pretty proud of my business plan. I can elaborate on the exact numbers and my program if you wish but basically I invite families to come out and make their very own syrup AND learn how to do it in the process. I host three families on Saturday and three more on Sunday. They collect just enough sap to boil down to 1 litre (quart in US terms). In the process, which takes 3 hours from arrival to departure, they learn all about maples and making syrup. Taffy on snow is included if there is snow (I posted about that issue in this thread) and they leave with two 375 ml bottles plus two 100 ml bottles for souvenirs or for grandparents which are fully filtered, bottled, labeled, and graded. A CD of photos is also included, taken by my able-bodied assistant while my guests are collecting, boiling, bottling, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgen.maple
My revenues are 3 families a day twice a week for an average of 6 weeks at $65 per session for a total of $2340. I also sell copies of Backyard Sugarin if they want to try it themselves along with having extra syrup available for purchase at $12 for 500 ml in Mason jars.
I spend about $150 on bottles & labels per year, $15 per year for a two year grading set, I bring in my own wood which according to another thread is about $15 per cord based on our depleting fossil fuels and eventual world crisis, and not a cent on advertising. I brought out a few families the first year to test out timing and entertainment value and they ended up telling several friends... who told some others... and so on. At this point I have a waiting list and either need to expand to a second evaporator or bump prices to increase revenue and reduce demand.
That's the catch to my business model. The larger you get the less profitable it would be and the more difficult to pull off. The first part is you need individual evaporators that can handle small batches (steam pans for example). Second, you need staff to monitor and/or coach each evaporator (small hands and high temperatures need to be monitored closely), third, I would be far more concerned about the liability laws in the States than Canada, and fourth, the further away people have to travel to collect sap the longer it takes to cycle families through. All of my sugars are within an 800 foot radius of the evaporator. Enough to keep young kids busy - not bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgen.maple
I've tried to figure out a way to take things bigger than two evaporators without success due to the staffing or logistic issues but a large operation that wanted to offer a make your own syrup sideline could make some very good added revenue if done correctly. If you want more detailed info or have any questions just let me know. I have yet to describe to someone what I'm doing and not have them interested in visiting to make their own.
It's not exact but it works out to roughly $250/gallon. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by farmall h
Thank you for the explanation, it all makes sense now.
Maximum profit is when you stick with visiting someone else's sugarhouse.
KenWP... I'm wondering if my business model would circumvent the Quebec quota laws for you. I'm not familiar with the regs... but just an idea. ;)
Bryan do you not have to have a liability insurance to do this.
Yes... but I didn't include that expense because I already carry a "hobby farm" policy and don't qualify as a legal farming entity until I reach $7500 gross sales according to our tax laws. You can visit me and be kicked by a horse, have a Christmas tree fall on you, spill boiling syrup, and be attacked by a rooster... and I'm covered. I have no doubt liability issues would be more of a concern in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgen.maple
If I am going to be kicked by a horse, have a christmas tree fall on me,spill sap and be attacked by a rooster I think I may stay home:D. Bryan sounds like you got it pretty well figured out. Good luck this year and be sure to let us know how it goes. Thanks for answering the questions as well.
Sugar making becomes profitable when you stop buying new toys!
We all have a good time differently. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgen.maple
Thanks very much 3rdgen.maple. I'm pretty proud of my set up and like everyone else here love to talk about sugurin'. I will admit I made a few mistakes the first year while figuring things out during the concept stages but it all worked out quickly with some fore-thought and creativity. If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask either here or by Private Message.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgen.maple
how about we bring this thread back now. If i was doing this living this year i would surely go hungry and in debt, i barley made enough to cover my cost this and i do it for fun.LOL
You never want sugaring to be profitable because then you cannot buy any new toys. Always show a lost at least for five years then a profit in the sixth, then back to lost.
no i becomes profitable when you stop sugaringQuote:
Originally Posted by ennismaple
Hi all,
When does sugaring become profitable??
Well that's easy ........ just the minute you start having fun!!!
And my family has fun doing this most of the time.
That's my two cents.
Just bringing this thread back up to the top. Was very informative and pretty darn funny at times. Wondering how the last 8 years worked out for them?
I would give the same advice as 8 years ago. luckily I followed it!
Thanks mountain it is a good thread. I read one post where someone said they would "JUST LIKE TO GET EVEN" Yup I would like to get even with the guy that got me started in this sport. I also like what my Pappy said to me "when your hobby becomes your job its no longer your hobby"
Every year I go thru the same angst around January over what the heck am I doing this for and then I look over at a shinny fitting or a pile of valves and switches that I hope to use to complicate my syrup shack. At 1700 taps and around 80-100 thousand invested.......HA HA HA invested that's a good one CHUCK it ain't no investment its money spent. Now its money spent on a hobby I love doing and it keeps me off the streets of my home town where I can cause the most heart ache for my friends and family.
I don't smoke or gamble, I do chase women but my wife yells at me to stop so I do. I refuse to go on cruises or leave the country. OK I went to lunch in mexico for about 1.5 Hrs and to Canada for the weekend in a marching band back in 64. Yea I went to Reno once to get married for the 3rd time but my buddy paid for that shindig.
I do this because its Fun I do it because I don't hunt or fish and I have all the Bennie Babies to fill out my collection so life is complete. It was for my daughter OK leave me alone. I know guys that have Bass boats that cost dang near what I have in equipment alone. I own my land and that is an investment that won't sit in the back yard on a rusty trailer with 2 flat tires. Plus when is the last time your friend with the cool boat ever sold his fish or didn't have the door slammed in his face when he came over with a stringer of dead catfish.
I really would love to make more money selling my syrup but then again if I just didn't make so many mistakes I might just put more in the drum and less on the ground. I spend more than I make and until that stops Ill never GET EVEN. Some day and that day will come at 68 years old the wife will say its time. When that day comes Ill roll myself over to the cliff and get up out of the scooter she put me in and pretend Im taking a selfie and tip over backwards into the lake and hope she gets the life insurance and pays of my tab at my maple supplier.
I know this sounds crazy but if I had to put up with the pressure to turn a profit doing what I really Love and hate to do I would quit. Now I will say selling the syrup I didn't dump on the ground helps with the addiction but it also feeds it..........thanks for listening.
Word of wisdom right here. A big part of the reason that I make maple syrup is because it gives me something to do when I can't really do anything else. It's too late for winter sports like snowmobiling and too early for spring and summer sports like camping and going to the beach. It's fun to watch the snow disappear and the trees come back to life after a cold winter. It's also fun to show off your stuff and talk maple to anyone that will listen. And the best part is the delicious maple syrup that I make.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchmaple
A lot of good points have been made in this thread so far and here's my story. I do this as a hobby that pays for itself. I take pride in the fact that I have never borrowed any money to build my little sugaring empire. I built and then remodeled and expanded my sugar house with the lumber from trees that were cut on my property. I bought my evaporator, RO machine, vacuum pump, releaser and all of the tanks and pumps that I needed with money that I got from the syrup that I made and sold. Do I make a profit? Hell no! Could I make a living doing this? Maybe if I added more taps. Do I want to try to make a living doing this? Hell no! That would take all of the fun out of it.
Dilly dilly
I received an automated update to this discussion and had forgotten all about it. I still stand by my numbers today but admittedly have out grown the whole make it yourself thing. Currently at 300 taps but expanding to 1500 this year which rules out the small equipment needed to make it work. The funny part is the agri-tourism profits as a small producer will likely be the same as a larger (but still small scale) bulk producer. Just saying the small guys can make some decent coin if willing to think outside the box.
I agree with all that value the time spent enjoying the sugaring vacation.
From a numbers stand point profitability is simple if you spread the cost of the "toys" over a practical period of time. Take an RO I am using a 1982 Memtek that my dad bought as a demo unit. 2012 it got new vessels and this summer it will have a membrane cart made to utilize the high pressure pumps capacity with todays high performance membrane advances.
When one spreads the cost out over the real life of the machinery the cost comes to very low numbers...provided you take good care of your equipment.
The hard part will be calculating the price we all will be getting for our product in the future. $10 per quart at Sam's is going to put many operations in the read if they need to reduce their prices to this point.
Where is the price of oil going to be for next season?
Are you using AUF-AOF for better wood efficiency?
Are you including paying yourself a wage that you could have someone do your job?
Our operation currently does not include hauling of sap. It all is vacuumed to the sugarhouse. Equipment is all paid off but I want a new rig that will be used in a new location for boiling. but I can get a new oil rig to last 20 years with good maintance.
So it is possible to show profit when amortizing your cost...but when filing a schedule C you will often not show a profit for 7 years unless you are buying preowned gear and working hard to maximize your production and utilize all you equipment to its maximum capacity.
Just remember that a vacation is a change of pace for a period of time. Sugaring for me is a vacation...but so was snowmobiling til 2 am, 18 hour days during fair season, driving 3-8 hours to watch a sons collaged soccer game just to turn around a drive home.
Lets face the facts: If you are on here you have an addiction,
You are at least 50% crazy in your neighbors eyes,
but we are the envy of thousands who would give all they have to trade places with us.
So remember to value the life we live and have built, at an appropriate value...Priceless!
Love it , agreed. Is it time to tap yet???? :D
This advice was worth far more than it was offered at.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainvan
The only thing I would say additionally is that typically producers make money in the woods, but they spend it in the sugarhouse.
To put some actual data to it. http://blog.uvm.edu/farmvia/?page_id=394
Both of the replies in the above post are good advice. I spent a few hours visiting mountainvan, he is a wealth of knowledge, mostly from the college of Hard Knocks, Dr. Tim on the other hand has the formal education and the scientific testing experience, thus he has the knowledge too, in spades.