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I'm new to this and wanted to try... but I am having a lot of trouble figuring out which ones I should be tapping. Are any of these maples? And how can I identify maples besides opposite branching? It seems like there's a lot of other trees here that do opposite branching.
Thanks!
Link to full pictures https://imgur.com/a/82txdZq
https://i.imgur.com/0SDmE7K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VLE1x5D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FOBJ2Qu.jpg
With the possible exception of the second to last pic, none of those look like maples to me. More like a mix of oaks, white ash, and perhaps big tooth aspen. The opposite branching is a good start but more is needed. There are probably ID resources on the internet that can help. More time in the woods helps too.
I keep reading the same techniques and half of them involve leaves unfortunately lol. In the link theres 2 photos of that 2nd to last tree you can zoom in onQuote:
Originally Posted by ecolbeck
It's hard telling from photos. But I'm going to say they're all maples. Bark can look different depending on age. Opposite branches are the tell. Maples have fine twigs at the tips. Ash look like long fat fingers. Look for a young 6 ft ash and the tips can be a foot long and might be as fat as your finger. Maples are much shorter and finer. Once you compare the two it is easy to differentiate.
Soft maples are like hard but the twig tips are more curled with noticable buds. Bark on soft maples tend to be smoother.
I see what appears to be a Red Oak and White Oak strong hold.
first row 1st pic is a Red Oak. You can see the reddish brown streaks of the phloem on it.
second row 1st pic is a Red Oak. Again you can see the reddish brown streaks of the phloem on it.
second row 3rd pic is a white oak and not a ash. The fissures in it are not contiguous enough to be a Ash and it would also have "Tanning" in it as 99% of the Ash trees in our region now do.
second row 4th pic hints of being a red maple, but my money would also go on a White Oak for this one.
second row 5th pic is too out of focus and covered by foliage to make a call on it for anything.
None of your canopy shots exhibit the silhouette of a sugar maple. The shot with the big tree that still has leaves clinging to it well into the off season is a "Screaming Oak", screaming I am an oak with some of my leaves still on. Beech do that also but this tree is not a Beech.
Your large photo of trunk appears to be a English oak, which is on the white team of the oak family. If the scaling were thinner it would be a Black Cherry.
NO WAY ... NO HOW!Quote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
Oak trees do not make great syrup!
PERIOD!
Younger sugar maple trees will have a smooth bark appearance with branches that often leave the trunk at a 90 degree angle (not always) and very small buds at the tips of the branches. See the first picture
Attachment 21979
Middle aged sugar maples will start to show vertical lines in the bark that will eventually turn into plates that separate from the tree (like shag bark hickory but less drastic) See second picture.
Attachment 21980
An old sugar maple looks like the last picture.
Attachment 21978
I'd agree with the others. Hard to tell for sure from pictures but I dont think any of them are maples.
Photos are never enough to me for a verification but if they are opposite branches then I'd say they're maples. None of them look like ash and no other hardwood would have opposite branches. I assume Ryansclzo verified them as opposite branches since he indicated his knowledge of that characteristic.
I will also say that verification of opposite branches is sometimes tricky. From the ground at maybe 60 ft away its a little hard to tell and can take a fair amount of study. Binoculars would help but I don't typically carry them in the woods when I'm working.
The other tell I use in winter is deer. They know their oak trees and they will paw up the snow looking for acorns.
Deer sometimes dig up acorns in the snow but that is only sometimes. If there are no footprints around your trees, that is NOT an indicator of any meaningful measure that they are maple trees.
I am certain that most of the pictures you are showing are oak trees and I will jokingly say that if you make syrup from them and pore it on pancakes, the pancakes will jump off of the plate on you, go get a lawyer and sue you for punitive damages.
There are two or three photos that could be soft maples, but only one has a possibility of being a sugar maple and that is the one out of focus and behind foliage ( White Oak Foliage by the way ).
If you would like I can come down next week ( I do plan to tap today and tomorrow ) from Weston to Fairfield ( If that's where you are) and tell you nearly every tree on your property. In about 3 minutes or less.
Thanks to all for the info. Admittedly it's pretty hard to see the opposite branching when it's so far up. I think these 2 trees have opposite.. are they maples? Also I am in fairfield county north of danbury
Attachment 21983Attachment 21984
I was out tapping today and I had a sugar maple with a few leaves on it. It kept screaming "I'm not an oak!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
I find that the oak leaves hanging on a tree are dark brown and brittle. Sugar maple leave typically end as yellow in the fall and their color and texture is more like they've melted away until winter put them in suspended animation.
It still comes down to opposing twigs are either maple or ash. Then it's easy to tell by looking at the size of the twigs and the bark.
Ken
I would agree that none of those pictures look like maples. People ask me how to tell trees apart and I usually can't give much help. I tell them it's like knowing a face. The tree just looks like a maple, oak, ash, etc. And that only comes from spending time in the woods during all seasons for a few years. Your best bet is to get someone to come and verify and explain the differences.
I ended up tapping 4 trees with 5 taps today and all had opposing twigs. I am pretty sure none were ash since ash has that diamond pattern... I guess my next question is: would other types of trees give any sap? Or would you have to taste it to know if it's maple sapQuote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
Great job ... convincing somebody posting pictures of oak trees to tap them and make maple syrup.Quote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
haha I didn't tap any of the trees I pictured. I found different ones and made sure of the opposing branches, and also made sure there was no diamond ash bark... I'll see if any sap came out tomorrow after workQuote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
Thank god.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryansclzo
While a lot of Vermonters know how to sugar and know what a sugar maple is, a lot don't. They moved to Vermont and pretend like they have been Vermonters for 16 generations.
That is the way it is in Vermont now! From one end of the state to the other.
The Ash trees in our region have been desecrated by the Emerald Ash Borer. RELENTLESS! All ash trees now show a lot of "Tanning" on there trunks. Birds have ripped away the outer bark showing a tan/khaki color on much of the trunk. These days you can easily identify ash trees by this Tanning. Nearly 100% of the ash in our region are effected. They are completely dead or very soon to be completely dead. Its a shame, cause they mill up some of the best lumber on the continent. Even after dead for the first year.
The juvenile ash or saplings appear to me to be impervious to the EAB. So after a century or two the great Ash trees may come about again so long as there will be no EAB sleeper cells.
You may not have sap flow tomorrow as a thaw may be needed for a day or two.
If you are in Maples you should have sap by mid week to the back end.
You can boil two cups down in a small pot and taste it. It should be candy sweet after one tablespoon is left in the pot.
If its bitter start writing an apology letter and post it in the woods when you are done!
Gods Speed.
If I offended you somehow then I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
From the beginning, I've only tried to help inform the original poster that opposite twigs mean a maple or ash and that it's easy to differentiate the two once you've narrowed it down to those 2.
I'll post some photos later today to show the variability of maples, including some with their leaves still on.
You don't need to boil the sap down to taste it's sweetness. It will be detectable right out of the tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
Also, if you boil 2 cups down to a tablespoon I can guarantee you'll have a disaster. Make sure you know about defoamers before you boil. Even with a defoamer, you'd never be able to boil down to a tablespoon without a serious burn to the pot. Prepare to throw away the pot and the syrup.
[QUOTE=TapTapTap;390811]It's hard telling from photos. But I'm going to say they're all maples.
QUOTE]
As they say in New Yawk .... "Ya don't know what you are talkin bout"
I'm not offended, but rather angry that you are encouraging a neophyte to drill holes in Oak Trees.
I should have added that if you micromanage two cups of sap in a small pot you can reduce it effectively enough for a taste test. I have done it several times in the past and I am sure even you can do it.
I am not certain that the maple is the only tree in these parts (Connecticut) that will run any significant amount of clear sap at this time of year. I believe it is but I am not certain. I suppose you are, even though you can not tell a oak tree from a maple tree in a reasonably decent photo.
[QUOTE=Sugar Bear;390964]Quote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
In the woods I'm able to look at the whole tree starting with the bark because it's easier to see up close. This is usually all I need. If I can't decide from the bark then I go to the branches. Many times the bark has a different appearance even on a single tree (as anyone should know). A photo of one section of tree does not give a true 3-d perspective and may confirm nothing. The opposite twigs (as I've said from the beginning) is the tell regardless of the look of the bark. Ryanscloz indicated that he knew about opposite branches and presented the photos as possible maples.
On the boiling down of 2 cups of sap to a tablespoon - I say there is no way it can be done without a serious melt-down, particularly someone who has never boiled. And, it's not necessary. So don't go scolding me about misleading anyone.
To answer your question about other trees that run. From my own experience birches and hop hornbeam will run, especially later in the season. Nut trees will run to varying degrees (walnut,butternut, hickory,and pecans). Beech will run just a little bit. I have tapped an ash a white oak and a red oak (on purpose) and none of them have run any sap. Just tapping it and seeing if it runs is probably not the best tapping strategy.
Forgive the poor photos in my previous post. They were taken in profile orientation and the photo upload kept flipping them 90 deg. So I screen shot them but they didn't have good resolution.
All of these photos are maples with not the typical bark. The one with the old leaves is also a maple with withered maple leaves.
Ken
Who would think it could be so difficult to identify maples. It's amazing how they can fool you. I've mentioned it to friends, and they thought I was crazy, so I had them take a walk with me and point them out. They basically pointed out every kind of tree except pine trees!
The second and forth tree in from the left don't look like maples to me, but I guess they are if you know they are.
I have lots of reds on my property. In the fall, before the leaves fell, I went around and tagged the maples. I guess if I took pics of them now, they probably wouldn't look like maples either. In past years I've used binoculars so I could see the ends of the high branches to make sure they were maples.
[QUOTE=TapTapTap;390984]Have you considered changing the name of your user ID from TapTapTap to something like LookLookLook or LookFirstThenTapQuote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
PS ... Every time I mill a Red Oak log from now on I will think of the first two pics on each row in this thread and of TapTapTap.
Same with a White Oak. And Black Oak if I ever mill any Black.
You can taste test sap for its would be syrup by putting two cups of sap in a small pot 6 inches or less in diameter. Do not try to do this with a Leader Inferno. It will not work. You will have a melt down. I prefer using a gas flame. As the sap boils down low in the small pot, tilt the pot at an angle and hold only the low side of the pot over the edge of the flame such that it continues to boil down to near syrup. As sap gets very low, lift pot away from flame if boil is too aggressive/burning. Takes a bit but it is not too bad, and you certainly do not want to boil all of your sap this way.
Tip ... While the initial boil of the sap takes place, do not go watch a movie. Stay close by and keep an eye on it.
I did it last year with some Red Maple Sap, 1% and it worked with that. I imagine it will only work better with 3% Hard Maple Sap.
If you find this approach too daunting then up the two cups to half a gallon or one gallon of sap.
Here's a couple of 6" maples with odd bark:
Attachment 22007
And one of those screaming maples - "I'm not an oak! I'm a maple. Tap me!"
Attachment 22008
After you read the following about marcescence let me know if you find any pics of screaming maples in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcescence
Try to read this sentence from that link at least two or three times....
"All oak trees may display foliage marcescence, even species that are known to fully drop leaves when the tree is mature"
Let me know if the link even mentions the maple tree.
Marcescence in maples both Red and Sugar in these parts is rare and far more common in oak and beech as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread.
Although you can take the LOW road and convince the poor guy to tap the oak trees.
To be fair to you, even though you are not being fair to the originator of this thread, I will add that the article does mention this ...
"Many other trees may have Marcescence leaves in seasons where an early freeze kills the leaves before the abscission layer develops or completes development"
And while we did have a early hard frost across this region this year I have noticed no Maples with any Marcescence.
I’ve never been able to tell with 100% accuracy. I mark my trees is the summer so I can tell come winter. I then look at the bark of a similar sized tree and guess.
So what did you figure out now that there's leaves on the trees?
I thought about this the other day when I was at a local golf course and this maple tree had ash bark.
Ken
In my early days of tapping I actually used binoculars to look at the higher branches. While malpes have opposite branching, that is not readily apparent on bigger limbs because one of the opposites often gets broken off. Another point, maples are not the only tree with opposite branching.
On a sugar maple, in the upper branches you should be able to see some opposite branching, then look for the ends of buds. On a sugar maple, they will have a sharp point, no other opposite branching tree has sharp pointed buds to my knowledge. Then get used to what the bark looks like in each age class. Sugar maples go thru a steady progression in the brk. A young tree will habe little rounded bumps in the bark. As the tree matures the bark will start to change until a mature tree will have vertical plates that start to curl away from the trunk, but only on one edge of the plate.
Also learn the limb configuration on a sugar maple, they have a very recognizable growth characteristic.
Back in my early days of sugaring I also drove school bus. I used to I.D. sugar maples for practice when it was safe to do so. In time I got to here I could identify a sugar maple from quite a distance, in the winter.
Red maples and silver maples also have opposite branching but their bark is quite different from sugar maples or each other. In the summer try to identify them, then study their bark and limb growth characteristics, then do it again as and then after the leaves fall.
In time you will get so you have no problem identifying any of the 3.
I have a couple of maples with the rough bark as shown in the original post. I believe they are Norway maples and yes they have opposing twigs.
Ken
that rough looking bark is not that unusual. i have a couple of red maples that look the same here. can be kind of deceiving if you don't bother to look at all the other factors that determine what kind of a tree your are looking at.
Bark should not be used as a primary indicator due to the huge variability in appearance. If it's summer, look at the leaves. During the winter, look for opposite branching pattern. Note that not all branches will be opposite (some shoots die as a regular course of nature). If there is a good bit of opposite branching on a large tree, the choices are generally maple or ash unless it's something like horse chestnut. Several shrubs also have opposite branching, but it's pretty obvious. A pair of low-power binoculars can help quite a bit.
Ash twigs are much stouter, with large buds. Maple twigs are much finer with slender buds. And yes...all (live) trees have buds even in the winter.
Many oaks and beech trees will have some leaves hanging on in winter (due to incomplete abscission). Maples and ash only rarely hold on to leaves.
If you can see reddish phloem in the bark of a tree that hasn't been cut down, you have x-ray vision. :confused:
In large parts of Vermont (especially hilly areas), oaks are not terribly common both due to site and stand management history.
Darn,
Just read this thread and see that I missed all the "excitement" from Feb 2021 from Tap Tap Tap and the "expert" from CT.
By the way, the expert from CT made a terrific effort to keep an Oak grove "in Connecticut" from being tapped, but he failed, mainly due to the expert from Vermont.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnallin
O well, at least it was not by a expert from Ohio!
That would be really low!
The easiest way for me to determine a Norwegian Maple around here is by the bark, the size of the leaf and the length of time they retain their green leaves into the fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by TapTapTap
They stand out very, very well and easily to me from other trees, all maples included, at any time of year.
1) Leaf is at least two times the surface area of a sugar maple. And smooth on the edges of the coves like the sugar maple and not serrated on the edges like the Red/soft maples.
2) Mature Norwegians have a very limited amount of deep and wide fissuring to their bark as compared to any of the other "MATURE" maples. Another words I find it very difficult to find a piece of bark on the trunk of mature Norewegian that I can break off with my fingers. Its integrity remains solid throughout its life. No Scaling of bark.
3) Norwegians will keep their large green leaves well into the fall and well after Halloween in these parts, after which at some point in November they turn a dull yellow ( never Red or Orange ) color and drop off. It is not uncommon at this time of year to have all other trees drop their leaves and the Norwegians to still have a full green leaf canopy.
I have observed hundreds of Norwegians in these parts over the years but never any, in any part of Vermont.
It would surprise me if their characteristics were substantially different up there but like anything it is possible.
https://www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org...s%20are%20bare.
I can show you hundreds upon hundreds of Norway maples around Vermont. I'd start with a 30 minute walk around my Essex Junction neighborhood for the first 50 (including a few of the Crimson King cultivore of the Norway). Took a car trip yesterday from South Burlington to a bit below Addison down route 7 and then 22A and saw Norways scattered all the way down, although the farther south I got, the fewer norways and the more sugars I saw. At 50mph (and I wasn't going a penny over of course), it was easier to spot the crimsons but spotted some green-leafed ones as well. They tend to be planted around residences. Hopefully they are mainly not found in the woods, but that's the fear. If they get into the woods they may take over if someone doesn't make sure they don't.
They do fit your description. If you can get close enough to one to pull a leaf, you can also verify for certain (if you've narrowed it to sugar or Norway) by observing the color of sap that comes out of the stem. Clear sap, its a sugar maple, white sap, its a Norway.
Side note: this was my first time driving by Shelburne Museum with my maple-colored glasses on. That place is loaded with sugar maple beauties! Someone needs to set up a working bucket-based sugarhouse exhibit over there! If they haven't already.... (again that was my drive-by assessment... closer to 40mph for that one I think...)
Andy
AndyQuote:
Originally Posted by Andy VT
I would guess that nearly all ornamentals can be found in the urban lower valleys of Vermont. Especially a prolific tree like the Norwegian. Just have not spent any time watching any in VT as most of my time is spent in the upland valleys and ridges where I suppose there are some, just have not taken notice of them. For example, I have yet to notice a Norwegian from Granville Gulch in Vermont all the way up to Middlesex along I 89. Not saying there are none, just have not spent time watching the carrying on of any. And for certain there are not a lot in that zone of the Route 100 valley.
In about 1991 ish I tried to make syrup from some Norwegians in NY and I got some pretty violent splattering/popping in the pan as it got even slightly close to syrup.
Rather than show me or help me identify Norwegians in Vermont, which I could probably now identify blind folded if need be, I would rather you tell me your opinion of making syrup with Norwegian Maple sap. Works??? ... does not work???? ... works OK????
Rob
I agree that you wouldn't see much for Norway' along I89 and believe you about that stretch of 100. Definitely true that they're more common the more urban you go. It is interesting how they jump out at you huh? Last summer I was really struggling to tell the difference. Now I can't unsee the difference. I still don't trust myself to ID any tree in winter though, and I'm pretty sure I'll never ID leafless trees in pictures on the web.
Comparing sugar maple to Norway maple was my primary sugaring goal this year, so I largely kept them separate, for the curiosity. Why? Well, basically because it seemed no one has really studied that yet. I'm planning to post a post with all the data soon, but yep, splattering! I was able to minimize this at least enough to not end up in the hospital by doing the final boil ridiculously slow and as much stirring as practical. There was also a ton of niter. But the final syrup was excellent, and just about a grade lighter than the sugar maple throughout the whole season except the end where the opposite was true. The color was a big surprise; I would have bet a lot of money on the opposite. I suspect in a continuous flow pan the spattering would be much less of a problem, but the excessive niter would give pause to doing that. I recommend Norway highly to urban sugarers, for trees that already exist (definitely don't allow any new trees to start). Expect half the sap at best versus sugar maple, but my sugar content was about 1.8% at the beginning and end of the season, and presumably better in the middle (forgot to measure), which I think isn't too shabby since silvers are shamelessly tapped and at least get reported to be lower content than that. (For 2023 I'm shamelessly adding at least one giant silver to the mix).