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Normally the sap will run here in March, occasionally late February. If in January you get a 7 to 10 day January thaw, where the daytime temps went above freezing and nighttime below freezing, would the trees start producing sap and if so, would you attempt to collect any?
Just curious.
Thanks
As far as sap flow goes it would depend on how hard the trees are froze and if there will be enough warmth to thaw them out. The larger the trees the longer it will take to thaw out. In January you have less daylight so the time above freezing will be shorter than in the spring so less time to thaw. Around here it will take at least 3 to 4 days to thaw the trees enough to flow. Then if the ground is frozen you will only get 1 run until it thaws. There are guys out east that do well that time of year on some years but around here I do not think we would get much if any. How you collect and tap hole sanitation will play into it also. On gravity you only have so many weeks before they stop giving. If you have separate trees from the ones you tap in the spring you could try it to see how it goes.
Good answer. More detail at: https://mapleresearch.org/pub/m0608tappingtiming/Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Sapper
Basically, anytime the conditions are right (maple trees thaw after a freeze), the sap will run. The sap sugar content will very by time of season though (low in Oct-Feb), then rise at the start of the season before dropping off slowly as the season progresses. Optimally, you'd like to tap all your trees in a fairly short timeframe just as the sap starts to run as you finished tapping the last hole. Very large producers (tens to hundreds of thousands of taps) must start tapping early. If there is a thaw, the sap will run, so they'll collect and boil. However, the sap won't run as well late in the season from tapholes drilled early than tapholes drilled late. The wound response happens very quickly -- we can detect changes in the wood within just a few weeks post-tapping. Reaming/retapping/bumping is NOT a recommended practice to rejuvenate tapholes -- the wound created is HUGE compared to a normal taphole.
Doctor, What do you mean "bumping"?
Sorry...that was a new one to me when I first heard it too. Comes from our southern (West Virginia) producers. I believe it means the same as we would call "drilling deeper" (but someone more knowledgeable about the term should feel free to correct me if I am wrong).Quote:
Originally Posted by jrgagne99
We've been looking at the practices for several years now. It is one of those things we didn't talk about much for two reasons. First we wanted to get several years under our belt to make sure the results held up under different season conditions. Secondly, it takes a while for the wound to develop and then for us to cut down and cut up the trees into little pieces to measure the wound size. Sometimes it just takes a while for the science to be done and come out.
Reaming involves tapping a wider taphole (using a slightly wider bit in the same taphole). Bumping is drilling a deeper taphole (same size bit, but going deeper in the same hole). Catch-all for all these practices is "redrilling", which can be either reaming, or bumping, or some combination both (using a slightly wider bit and going deeper in the same taphole). Regardless, these all tend to produce a little more sap (sap yield results vary tremendously upon when the timing of when it is done), but will create a much larger wound than the original taphole....often double or more the size.
The last in this category of "freshening" tapholes is to drill a second hole just above or just below the original taphole of the same season, either using the same or a new spout (sometimes with plugging the original hole, sometimes not). Again, sap yields can vary a LOT, but generally this does not increase sap yield by a huge amount, and more importantly, does NOT simply fall within the same stain column even if quite close to the original taphole. Maple wood is not perfectly straight-grained, but tends to twist a little. The wound created will be a completely new wound (even when tapping just 2" above or below the previous taphole), but will interact with the first to be more than double and sometimes up to triple the size of a single taphole.
Retapping is akin to when you have a wound of some type and you disturb it. If you leave it alone, it'll probably heal well and form a small scar. If you dig at it and keep peeling off the scab, the damage is going to be much greater.
Bottom line...none of these taphole rejuvenation approaches are recommended practices. We have a paper on this subject coming out in the October edition of "The Maple Digest." Stay tuned.
Humans like all beasts of the forest are far more responsive to image then to words. If what you are saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt that it is true, I recommend the paper be short on words and big on photos of tap holes left alone and tap holes revisited.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins
You will get much better results.
Observation is the best form of education in the world.
Someone started the practice of bumping, I confess it is me, don’t have time to explain why. Many West Virginians bump taps, closest producer to me tapped mid Jan. Ran until last week of Feb. trees stopped! He bumped 2100 plus taps and made 200 gallons more syrup! Retail market average of 60 dollars a gallon, 12000 dollars! I know that is not much money but it helps to pay the bills, someday we will be out of business due to spring time heat and you northern producers can deal with it!
Mark 220 Maple
That sounds like a good addition to the season. How much syrup did he make out of those 2100 plus taps before bumping? And what was the original tap depth and how much additional depth?Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
Let me first say that I agree with Dr. Abby at Proctor, it is not a good practice! I only bump taps if I go thru a heat and the taps stop or slow down to the point that I don’t get enough sap to fire the RO back up. Original depth is one an a quarter inches then when I bump I go another half inch. Some springs it is not required, we can have a 70 degree day here then followed by two or more weeks of perfect sap weather, another weather event we struggle with is tap holes freeze drying, something northerners nor Proctor or Cornell deals with! I bumped a few holes this Spring mainly because I tapped two weeks later than the neighboring camp. I bumped to some try something new! I had in the past bumped with same size bit as the original hole! Biggest issue I had was tap hole integrity, when bumping if you wobble just a little bit you can have a vacuum leak! I bumped this year with a smaller bit so spile was tight again therefore on vacuum leak! I don’t recommend doing this, follow the science!
I will try to get you the numbers from the neighboring camp that produced 200 gallons more, I’m pretty sure they had made around 400 gallons before bumping.
Mark 220 Maple
Like I said or implied earlier a few good photos making a comparison between "bumped" and "non bumped" will speak about a hundred volumes of documentation on the matter.
A doctor says "this" or wrote "this" is relatively useless these days.
But this is just the way the world works now.
Not that I am doubting any on this myself. My guess is that Tim Perkins and others are presenting the facts behind their encounters and they are accurate facts.
But Afgans stand on top of airplanes not expecting to make the flight on that spot, but be photographed there so that their desperation can be received through photos rather then words.
Words pretty much do not work anymore.
And of course the fact that the race for $$$ is more pronounced now the ever and an extra $12,000 is still a lot of money even to Bill Gates.
Human lives are measured against the dollar, why should trees not be measured against the dollar as well.
If we ever saw a video of a person dying from the Rabies Virus we would all go get the Rabies vaccine, if we had been bitten. ( hopefully we would do this anyway, whether we saw the video or not)
If we ever saw a video of a 30 year old person dying from COVID 19 we would all go get the COVID Vaccine and then the booster. But if we did not see it it did not happen.
I got my COVID vaccine because I felt Society/God were asking me to help others. I did not do it for myself. I am 57, afraid of dying but not from COVID. More afraid of dying from other peoples BS then COVID.
Their are no laws concerning the "ethical treatment" of plants.
There are laws concerning the "ethical treatment" of people and animals, although many violate this regularly.
If people want to damage their trees, that is certainly their prerogative from a legal aspect.
I would prefer not to and be informed about the matter and know just how much collateral damage I am doing to the tree and myself should I "bump" a tap hole.
After all, as a small time sugar maker, my trees are me.
I believe that we in central PA may be in more of the same situation that you are in as opposed to the northern states. It seems that all of the research is done in and relevant to the climate and elevation that just are not present here.Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
Interesting, I have only ever bumped twice and had the same problem. Smaller bit would help. I had heard of retapping and originally thought that is what I was doing. Didn't know that I was bumping until Dr. Tim's explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
For not being a recommend practice, those results would be hard for me to ignore especially if the wound was less than 1/3 larger than a standard 1 3/4" deep tap hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
Various practices we collectively refer to as "taphole rejuvenation" have been done since people started chiseling or chopping gashes in maple trees to collect sap -- bumping is not new, but the term is. It is not unique to southern areas, but has been practiced in the north to a fair degree as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
The difference is that until recently, there has not been ANY amount of understanding of how these practices affected internal wounding and thus sustainability of the practice. People hear they can get 10-20%+ more syrup and it is the same taphole....let's do it. What was not understood is exactly what the consequences are of doing that. I fully understand that it is YOUR trees and you can do whatever you like, but it is equally important that producers recognize by doing something that (in the short-term) will result in additional syrup (and additional $), in the long-term could well reduce syrup yields, health of trees, and reduce the economic sustainability of syrup production from those stands. The growth of trees is not likely to be sufficient to sustain a wound double or triple the volume caused by such practices, thus we cannot recommend it. The argument for using paraformaldehyde in tapholes was basically the same....more sap, great. The effect was also very similar...much larger internal wounding.
Essentially, all we are doing is providing some information and education about the consequences of decisions you make. If short-term economic gains are critical....that drives the decision. If long-term economics and sustainability are more important, make a different decision.
For many producers, there is also the issue of how much it costs to go out and retap trees. Reaming, retapping, bumping takes time. Time is money.
Lastly, there is no question that more research is needed in the southern portions of the maple production region, and it is good to see that starting to happen more and more. Those in the far northern regions say the same thing. However, tree physiology is not really that different from place to place. A sugar maple tree in Vermont is pretty much the same as a sugar maple tree in West Virginia or in New Brunswick. Taphole wounding, compartmentalization processes, and sapflow processes are not different. The weather/climate definitely is, which can affect some aspects of production (sap flow timing, taphole "drying", tree growth rates, etc.), but many things are very much the same.
Interestingly, a good deal of maple research USED to be done by the U.S. Forest Service out of the "Philadelphia Lab." Wonder how people felt about that? It is certainly a valid point. Most people would prefer to have the studies done in a spot exactly like they have, but the research stations had to be set up somewhere. Wasn't my call (in 1946) where the University of Vermont decided to put a maple research station.Quote:
Originally Posted by minehart gap
Wounds were typically double OR MORE the volume with any of the rejuvenation practices. The paper is "in press" as we speak...and will be out in the next Maple Syrup Digest (so we're told), and yes, there will be pictures. :DQuote:
For not being a recommend practice, those results would be hard for me to ignore especially if the wound was less than 1/3 larger than a standard 1 3/4" deep tap hole.
Doubtful. $12,000 is 0.000009% of his net worth --- pocket change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
Dr Tim - I am really looking forward to reading your article in the Maple Digest. They are always well intentioned, thorough and unbiased.
Do research projects always work out? Absolutely not - that's part of the scientific method and we learn from the findings and come up with a new hypothesis.
While I am certain your tap hole bumping research will put things in perspective .000009% of someone's net worth does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins
The following is a true story and keep in mind I am probably the poorest person ( although possibly the highest credit rating ) in Weston CT where average household income average is $250,000 a year so there is no bragging here just emphasis on the value of a hard earned dollar aboard anybody's boat.
In the year 2001 ( we all remember that one like it was yesterday ) I had two large purchases that year. One was a brand new 2002 Model Year Subaru Outback for $23,000.00 and the other happened to be $12,000 worth of Microsoft Stock.
Today the market value of that stock is $140,000. Not to mention about the MINIMUM $12,000 in cash dividends the stock has paid over that time.
So $12,000 over what seems like yesterday, becomes $152,000 today ... a lot of money to anybody ... even Bill Gates ... then, now or twenty years from now.
And the old 2002 Subaru came off the road on Jan 1, 2017 with 409 thousand miles on it. Parted it out for parts for the one I bought with 130 thousand miles on it and still pleasant on the road today with 260 thousand on it.
I am anxious to see those pictures and read up so thanks for the hard and diligent work as it helps me keep things in perspective when the sugar comes calling.
Its more about what we do with it then how much it is.
I believe that both Proctor and Cornell are appropriately located, i just do not think that all of the research that is done in a particular climate is able to be considered absolute. You referenced in a separate post that there is research being done in the southern producing states, please elaborate more on this if you would.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins
Oh, and some of us like your research papers just the way you do them. Pictures do speak a thousand words but most times you just can't say what you have learned without words.
This is definitely a side topic, so everyone should feel free to ignore it if you wish, but since you brought it up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
That's great results....no doubt the stock market has been on a tear for a while. The strange thing....$152k is still just a small amount of wealth for Bill Gates and a good number of others. It's about 0.00004% of his net worth. That amount of wealth is absolutely incredible and difficult to understand. There's a good video that attempts to portray it at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W56g5KdqZoo Keep in mind video was done a few years back. At that time Jeff Bezos net worth was $120 BILLION, it is now around $186 BILLION, and this is AFTER he gave his wife $38 BILLION in their divorce settlement.
Heard an interesting podcast on this topic a few months ago. People at this level can almost completely avoid paying taxes. Rather than draw a salary, their net worth is so high that they take massive loans from banks instead (the banks have an arrangement where they'll get paid the principal when they die). They do pay interest, but it is (partially) tax deductible or a business expense, so it offsets any taxes they do pay. So they have little or no real "income" according to the IRS, but high expenses, thus little or no taxes despite getting resources of millions or billions to spend. Quite the scheme. Takes a bunch of lawyers and bankers to make the arrangements, but saves them huge amounts in tax.
No, we don't see it that way at all. Any work results in certain "inferences" you can draw, which to some degree limit the applicability of the results to certain conditions. That said, it is likely or at least quite possible that the results could be the same elsewhere, but we can't be entirely certain unless other work is done that extends the inference to those conditions. So our work at UVM PMRC probably holds true for northern Vermont, upstate NY, and surrounding areas, but we're less certain about them beyond that. Again...could well be that they apply elsewhere, but you can't be certain. The results are likely to hold up better for some things, and less sure for others. That's just a limitation of science.Quote:
Originally Posted by minehart gap
An example of that would be if a scientist were in the tropics and observed that the sky was blue. He/she couldn't be absolutely certain that the sky was also blue in the temperate regions or the arctic without going there and observing it. However atmospheric physics are similar in both places, but with some differences in conditions. So it is LIKELY that they sky is blue in temperate regions and the arctic as well, but you can't be absolutely certain.
There is some work (both research and education) being done in CT, NJ, VA, WV, IO, OH and then further out west in OR and WA https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/grants/acer/awards Much of it just started in the past few years, and the topics vary depending upon who is doing the work and where. I expect you'll hear more about these as time goes on, but right now, much of those efforts are just ramping up.Quote:
You referenced in a separate post that there is research being done in the southern producing states, please elaborate more on this if you would.
There generally is a mix of both words and figures (graphs/tables/photos). We try to determine how best to explain the study and portray the results so the message is clear.Quote:
Oh, and some of us like your research papers just the way you do them. Pictures do speak a thousand words but most times you just can't say what you have learned without words.
You are quite right. Lots of projects don't work out, but we always learn something. Science rarely comes up with a definitive answer right away. Generally it starts with something fairly broad, then narrows in on it. Science also rarely "proves" anything. Instead, it tries to disprove that other alternatives are viable or that they are (statistically) unlikely, so the one explanation left standing is (most likely) the correct one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ennismaple
Tax breaks for the extremely wealthy are disturbing to me as well but somehow I am not opposed to tax breaks for people who maple sugar, some of whom are very wealthy by the way.
My point would be that $12,000 is still a lot of money to anybody if you can do the right thing with it. If you P it to the wind, its not a lot of money and its not a little money, but instead is nothing. Well it is something still but its P blowing in the wind.
Which car is more valuable? The car that someone like Bill Gates paid $23,000,000 in 2001 for and put 11,237 miles on or the one I paid $23,000 for in 2001 and put 409,000 miles on. Not to mention all the beautiful Atlantic Salmon it got me hooked into way up north of the boarder.
Now if you post some of those pics that show tap hole wound comparisons, this thread will be back on scientific topic and off of philosophy.
Guaranteed.
The results of this 3-yr study, including photos and text, will be published in an upcoming Maple Syrup Digest, most likely the October 2021 edition. Feel free to return to this thread after that with questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear
In addition, Dr. Abby did present some of this info at a CDL seminar earlier this year. If you're interested, it is at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNKZX2DOL5k
Just for fun! Jeff Besos makes 2400 dollars a second, therefore every 5 seconds 12000 dollars, he should buy 12000 dollars worth of Microsoft stock every 5 seconds just think how rich he will be in 15 years! ����, I’m with Dr. Tim I just can’t imagine that he cares about 12000 dollars, or better yet he could buy a new Subaru Outback every half hour and have enough extra change left to gas it up.�� 12000 dollars matters to this PB, Gates or Beso, Musk or Buffett no way! I have a cousin that keeps 5 million dollars in his day trader account just to play with! Most certainly he is a Billionaire, that is 10 hundred million, if he looses 12000 dollars in the stock market today! It just doesn’t matter! He could loose that much for 365 days that would be 4380000. He still has 995620000 left, ok you’re right, I need a picture to illustrate this! This is why the Government can spent 3.5 Trillion and no one cares, sorta like a tap hole wound, show me a picture and I will believe what your saying!
Mark 220 Maple
If $12000 a day ( cash and non paper I assume ) would be a meaningless loss to him, have you ever considered asking your cousin to donate $12000 a year to sugar makers that have to "BUMP" their trees in order to help pay bills?Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 maple
And in the process stop poking their trees to death.
You could even ask Gates, Buffet and Soros to chip in but my bet is you would have a better chance getting a pet coon to donate $12000 to this cause.
On the other hand well taken and displayed photographs might have a reasonable chance of having a positive effect.
I guess tappers can wait till October, nobody is planning on tapping before then, although it would not surprise me if they were. Tapping in early October and bumping by mid October. Got to tap in the mid fall now, winter time and spring time don't come anymore.
As you said $12000 is not a lot of money and as I said $12000 is still a lot of money to anybody especially your friend who bumps all his taps for $12000.
So I can understand why he might want to thrash the H out of his trees.
But some good photographs might make him think twice about it.
October it is we hope.
Sugar Bear, do you really know someone who is "poking their trees to death"? If they are they really need to change their habits. If taping is done correctly the tree will die of old age first.
It is extremely hard to kill a tree by overtapping. That said, what will happen if trees are overtapped for a period of time is a reduction in the amount of viable wood in the tapping zone, resulting in tapping into stained wood with the attendant loss of sap yield https://mapleresearch.org/pub/4221eco/ ....which leads to putting in more taps to compensate, resulting in more loss of viable wood...Quote:
Originally Posted by bill m
In other words...this is a really bad cycle to get into. That is why tapping guidelines should be used. https://mapleresearch.org/pub/vandenberg10full-2/
Reviving this thread to seek some clarification on taphole rejuvenation. Contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread, a recent article in the Maple News seemed to imply that rejuvenation was an acceptable strategy. A hobby producer was interviewed and claimed that he was using a system promoted by Cornell. Did I misread something?
Haven’t yet seen the article. What does it say?
http://http://www.themaplenews.com/story/betting-on-his-buckets-nh-producer-taps-early/411/
“ Taylor said he plans on a taphole rejuvenation strategy, researched and promoted by the Cornell Maple Program, later in the season.
He said he plans on redrilling existing tapholes on 50 percent of his trees, and drilling new tapholes on the other 50 percent.”
It is NOT a strategy Cornell or UVM advocates. He is quite mistaken.
Steve Child’s did some research on the subject and found some increase in yield at times. He never looked at how it affected wounding. He also never recommended it, but said more work was needed. UVM looked at both yield and wounding. Bottom line — really bad idea.
I expect a correction will be forthcoming.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PlnqFny5tpk
https://mapleresearch.org/pub/wound0621/