Foaming like crazy

Started todays boil with a like new clean pan. Sap concentrated to 4%. From the time it came to a boil it was foaming. The foam would die down around firing time but then go right back up as soon as I added wood. I boiled 4 1/2 hours and it kept getting worse as the day went on. Towards the end I wasn't even firing as hard as I usually do. No amount of defoamer would help at all. I emptied the pan at the end and it really had no nitre in it but there was an abnormal amount of really dark foam on the sides of the pan. The syrup tastes very good and I am wondering if this is just from late season sap? Most of the sap was clear but I did have some cloudy mixed in. I also ran it a little deeper then normal as I was concerned with scorching the pan.

Had the same problem boiling for 6 hours yesterday, Playing with fire worrying about scorching the pans.

Same here. My Reds cleared up yesterday, which I have never seen this late in the season, it is always cloudy. Sap was very foamy during boil. Had to increase to 3 drops of defoamer with each firing, instead of my usual 1 drop. Still good flavor though.

Foaming in late season can be high. Foaming with a clean pan can be high (no residual defoamer spread throughout pan). You got both at the same time.

I did my final boil of the season today and had the same problem. I also noticed that anytime I pumped or poured sap it also foamed up. Glad it's not like that all the time. Thanks for the answers.

We have to increase our defoamer usage late in the season to keep the syrup pans from overtopping the partitions. Whenever possible we only add defoamer to the incoming sap (concentrate) but late in the year you often need to add a touch to the syrup pan every once in a while.

Is a defoamer a must have for a hobbyist, regardless of the type of evaporator? Is the foam just something you can scoop off with a strainer type of ladel?

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

Is a defoamer a must have for a hobbyist, regardless of the type of evaporator? Is the foam just something you can scoop off with a strainer type of ladel?

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No defoamer = a messy disaster and potentially burnt pan.

You can use sunflower or canola oil as a natural defoamer as well. A few drops works well. Would be fine for small hobbyist using steam pans.

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Originally Posted by TapTapTap

No defoamer = a messy disaster and potentially burnt pan.

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Only if you plan to finish on your evaporator. I did batch boils for five years, and only went to probably 50% sugar max on the evaporator, before finishing the syrup on the stove. Never used a drop off defoamer, and never burned my pans.

GO

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Originally Posted by TapTapTap

No defoamer = a messy disaster and potentially burnt pan.

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Only if you plan to finish on your evaporator. I did batch boils for five years, and only went to probably 50% sugar max on the evaporator, before finishing the syrup on the stove. Never used a drop off defoamer, and never burned my pans.

GO

I've always used canola oil, works good for me.

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Originally Posted by DRoseum

You can use sunflower or canola oil as a natural defoamer as well. A few drops works well. Would be fine for small hobbyist using steam pans.

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Thanks

Do you just add a drop or two when you start boiling, or do you wait until you have a foaming problem?

Is a drop or two good for 8 hours of boiling, or would you add a drop every four hours or so.

it will depend on many things, but typically we use a couple drops every time we fire our rig. early in the season we tend to use much less than later in the year. our first handful of boils we may not use it at all.

I use a ketchup bottle, like what you see in restaurants, for the canola oil. I have a 2 x 4 evaporator and begin with a couple of drops on the inlet side of the flue pan when I start up. Then watch as I boil and add oil when firing and if it starts to foam up.

I will pick up some canola oil and the ketchup bottle sounds like a good idea.

A drop when I fire up and another drop if they start to foam.

Watching a couple of You Tube videos, one person added butter and the other simply scooped out the foam.

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

Watching a couple of You Tube videos, one person added butter and the other simply scooped out the foam.

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There are two kinds of foam. The one that's the real problem, you can't scoop out.

GO

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Originally Posted by berkshires

There are two kinds of foam. The one that's the real problem, you can't scoop out.
Ft
GO

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Boy, I have a lot to learn!

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

Boy, I have a lot to learn!

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Yes you do. Lol and the biggest thing to know is that you NEVER leave your boil unattended or un watched. You can watch that sap boil for hours and days with no problems but the minute you turn your back on it disaster can happen. You would be hard pressed to find a sugermaker that hasn't scorched his or her pan at the least. I did it on my first boil right at the end of the day and seen my first batch of beautiful syrup turn to ugly black ash and a scorched and warped pan. Not a good feeling!

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

Boy, I have a lot to learn!

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In a nutshell:

"Foam" refers to two things:

1 - There is a type of foam formed of big light bubbles that form and pop quickly. It forms all the time, but some sap does this more than others - it may depend on the tree and or the time of the season. The main downside of this foam is that it leaves residue on the side of your pan, which (especially if you have high heat on the sides of your pan) can scorch a little. This is not a very big deal, but can lead to off-flavors in your syrup - mostly a burnt-caramel type flavor. And it's typically very subtle. The solution to this can involve scooping foam if you like, but I always ignored it. The thing is, if you don't have heat on the sides of your pan it won't scorch, so it's just not an issue. I guess if you have a super-hard boil you could get enough of this type of foam that it could cause some of the foam to boil over the sides, which would not be good.

2 - The second type of foam does not happen all the time. It only happens when sap gets close to syrup. Then the consistency changes. It gets much thicker, and when it boils, you get lots of small bubbles that don't pop as quickly, but instead tend to build up. Think of a liquid flowing sponge. I know you recently made maple candy, so you may have noticed that if it boils hard it will boil over. On the stove you can just turn the heat down, but on the evaporator, not only you can't you, but you don't want to. Instead if you add defoamer it can make the bubbles pop faster. So what is the risk of this kind of foam?

The risk is huge. First of all, this foam is progressive. The foam is an insulator. The more it foams up, the less heat gets released, causing even more of the syrup to foam. So bad goes to worse very fast. Second of all, down at the level of the pan, once the foam gets past a certain point, there's nothing but foam touching the surface of the pan. Foam is not a good heat conductor, so your pan can quickly go from 219 to 800 degrees. You now have horribly scorched sugar on your pan, and these temperatures will permanently warp your pan.

In addition to destroying your pan, you can also have all your syrup destroyed by having all that horribly burnt sugar (and nitre) in it. If that's not bad enough, your syrup can also boil over, making a big sticky mess, and even catching on fire.

The key thing about foam type 2 is that it typically only happens as your sap gets to high sugar percentage. So if you only go to 30 - 40% sugar on your evaporator, and then finish elsewhere, you may not need to worry too much about it. On my old setup, I didn't use a drop of defoamer for 5 years.

Hope that helps,

Gabe

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Originally Posted by berkshires

In a nutshell:

"Foam" refers to two things:

1 - There is a type of foam formed of big light bubbles that form and pop quickly. It forms all the time, but some sap does this more than others - it may depend on the tree and or the time of the season. The main downside of this foam is that it leaves residue on the side of your pan, which (especially if you have high heat on the sides of your pan) can scorch a little. This is not a very big deal, but can lead to off-flavors in your syrup - mostly a burnt-caramel type flavor. And it's typically very subtle. The solution to this can involve scooping foam if you like, but I always ignored it. The thing is, if you don't have heat on the sides of your pan it won't scorch, so it's just not an issue. I guess if you have a super-hard boil you could get enough of this type of foam that it could cause some of the foam to boil over the sides, which would not be good.

2 - The second type of foam does not happen all the time. It only happens when sap gets close to syrup. Then the consistency changes. It gets much thicker, and when it boils, you get lots of small bubbles that don't pop as quickly, but instead tend to build up. Think of a liquid flowing sponge. I know you recently made maple candy, so you may have noticed that if it boils hard it will boil over. On the stove you can just turn the heat down, but on the evaporator, not only you can't you, but you don't want to. Instead if you add defoamer it can make the bubbles pop faster. So what is the risk of this kind of foam?

The risk is huge. First of all, this foam is progressive. The foam is an insulator. The more it foams up, the less heat gets released, causing even more of the syrup to foam. So bad goes to worse very fast. Second of all, down at the level of the pan, once the foam gets past a certain point, there's nothing but foam touching the surface of the pan. Foam is not a good heat conductor, so your pan can quickly go from 219 to 800 degrees. You now have horribly scorched sugar on your pan, and these temperatures will permanently warp your pan.

In addition to destroying your pan, you can also have all your syrup destroyed by having all that horribly burnt sugar (and nitre) in it. If that's not bad enough, your syrup can also boil over, making a big sticky mess, and even catching on fire.

The key thing about foam type 2 is that it typically only happens as your sap gets to high sugar percentage. So if you only go to 30 - 40% sugar on your evaporator, and then finish elsewhere, you may not need to worry too much about it. On my old setup, I didn't use a drop of defoamer for 5 years.

Hope that helps,

Gabe

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Very informative and detailed and will likely will save me from some disasters. I very much appreciate it and understand what you are saying.

One question, to determine if you are 30 - 40% sugar, do you use a refractometer, or a hydrometer, or is there a simpler way of telling? I likely would have got it to about 60 on the Brix scale before taking it off the evaporator.

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

Very informative and detailed and will likely will save me from some disasters. I very much appreciate it and understand what you are saying.

One question, to determine if you are 30 - 40% sugar, do you use a refractometer, or a hydrometer, or is there a simpler way of telling? I likely would have got it to about 60 on the Brix scale before taking it off the evaporator.

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I never bothered to test on the evaporator, I just boiled until I had cooked it down enough to bring it home. But you can get in the ballpark with just a good a digital thermometer.

GO

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Originally Posted by berkshires

I never bothered to test on the evaporator, I just boiled until I had cooked it down enough to bring it home. But you can get in the ballpark with just a good a digital thermometer.

GO

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So, let’s say the boiling point of sap on that day is 217.5° F. Would you remove it if it was let’s say 215°?

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Originally Posted by berkshires

I know you recently made maple candy, so you may have noticed that if it boils hard it will boil over. On the stove you can just turn the heat down, but on the evaporator, not only you can't you, but you don't want to. Instead if you add defoamer it can make the bubbles pop faster.

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I meant to mention this when first responded to your post. While making the maple candy it try to boil over on a few occasions, and I did have to lift the pot to stop it. Eventually it stopped trying to do that.

Your example really helps me understand the two types of foam and when I should add the drop of canola oil.

Just out of interest, is there something unique about canola oil, or could one use corn oil or avocado oil?

Swingpure

The only real unique thing about canola oil is that it is not a large allergen and works alright. Synthetic defoamers work way better, but you can not be organically certified if you use them because they are an additive to the syrup. Any fat will kill the foam but may add flavor to the syrup. Old timers used butter, milk, cream salted port fat, bacon, and I'm sure other things were used these just what I know of in my region. I can say I've never heard of using corn or avocado oil, but they certainly have the possibility of working and may add an off flavor to your finished syrup.

Have fun with it.

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

So, let’s say the boiling point of sap on that day is 217.5° F. Would you remove it if it was let’s say 215°?

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Sorry, I don't understand your question. If you're aiming for some specific gravity then use whatever you would normally use to test it. If you want ballpark, then look up the boiling temperature of the sugar you are aiming for and take it off when it gets there.

Me, I always just boiled until I had reduced it enough to be able to bring it home, and if the syrup pan started to foam up I would add more from the next pan down. Or I might scoop off some nearup first and then add more of the next lightest sap.

Keep in mind that I'm tailoring what I'm discussing to stream tray pans (what I used to use, and what you plan to use). When you work with stream tray pans and are not drawing off syrup the procedures are a bit different. So some of the things people are discussing here may not be appropriate to your situation.

Gabe

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Originally Posted by Swingpure

I meant to mention this when first responded to your post. While making the maple candy it try to boil over on a few occasions, and I did have to lift the pot to stop it. Eventually it stopped trying to do that.

Your example really helps me understand the two types of foam and when I should add the drop of canola oil.

Just out of interest, is there something unique about canola oil, or could one use corn oil or avocado oil?

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When I make confections I usually put a little vegetable oil on a paper towel and then run it around the inner surface of the pot. It's a tiny amount but it does the trick.